Well I’ll Go To The Foot Of My Stairs…

Much is being made of…

July 13, 2008 · 103 Comments

...the porn using man in a position of trust who pleaded guilty to filming and photographing his sexual assault of a woman. And I’m not entirely sure why.

Before I go any further: the actions of Kyle Payne are despicable – as are the actions of all abusers. Some make the papers, most don’t – but that doesn’t make them any less vile. Nor does it make the trauma of the assault any less for the woman Kyle Payne used in the creation of his pornography. I sincerely hope she recieves all the support she needs to recover from this as best she can.

Mr Payne describes himself as

….a social justice educator, writer, and activist. Much of his work is concerned with putting a stop to violence against women. For years Kyle has served as an advocate for survivors of sexual violence and other forms of abuse, in addition to promoting what he calls ‘a more just and life-affirming culture of sexuality’ through activism and education. As a researcher, Kyle has studied the feminist anti-pornography movement and is particularly interested in men’s roles in confronting pornography and the rape culture. In addition to his pro-feminist work, he is involved with anti-racist, free speech, peace, and anti-globalization movements.

Is that what’s causing so much consternation? The misuse of power?

As an ‘advocate for survivors of sexual violence’ (I don’t get that – what is it? Was he actually a rape crisis counsellor or did he just collect the stories?) he obviously was in close contact with women who had disclosed sexual violence and was in a position of relative power. But then, so are doctors and some male doctors sexually assault their patients. So are husbands and fathers, boyfriends and lovers – men in general. I know of a male trainee midwife who regularly beats and rapes the mother of his children. If he qualifies he’s going to have a field day acting out his misogyny till he gets caught.

Or is it the feeling that he’s betrayed feminism?

Kyle Payne describes himself as ‘pro-feminist’ – well, I could describe myself as a brick-layer but that wouldn’t make it true. I could buy all the tools, learn all the terms, spout all the theory but, until I’d actually built a wall I’d be a phoney. He lied. Many men describe themselves as ‘pro-feminist’ when, in reality, they’re nothing of the sort. Many men seem to get off on being party to women’s discussions of the realities of having to share the world with people like them and our attempts to change things for the better for all of us. Cooing all the while and describing themselves as ‘pro-feminist’ but actually doing bugger all to change anything because they’re quite fine with things as they are thank you very much. Kyle Payne is no different.

Or is it the fact that he has ’studied the feminist anti-pornography movement and is particularly interested in men’s roles in confronting pornography and the rape culture’?

As a radical feminist, I’ve often been told by pornography advocates and apologists who don’t care for my arguments regarding harm that I hate pornography because, deep down, I love it and I’m just repressed. I have read criticisms of the language used by committed anti-pornography activists as being pornographically indulgent; insinuating that the writer is getting off on the sexual degredation of women when all they’re doing is simply quoting the language used by pornographers to illustrate their point. There has been some intimation that the actions of Kyle Payne confirm this view of anti-pornography activists – that those of us who publicly condem something have some kind of personal struggle with it. Some may do – and I’m thinking of a particularly brave and vocal male anti-pornography activist who is trying to recover his humanity from years of pornographic exposure – but, generally, I call bullshit on trite get-outs. ‘Research’ is very different from activism. Anyone can go to conferences – Kyle Payne’s idea of ‘confronting pornography and the rape culture’ is as about as effective as spinning round a pole and calling it feminist – i.e. it’s just more of the same and it changes nothing for anyone. Anyone who believes Kyle Payne is representative of anti-pornography feminism needs to speak (courteously) more with us.

I’ve read various attempts to psychoanalyse this man’s actions. Why bother? It seems perfectly clear to me. Why did Kyle Payne cause such a big whoop in the blogs I read? Man sexually assaults woman. It’s just situation normal as far as I can see. Predatory men will manipulate themselves into women’s spaces for their own spurious ends, including feminism.

That the actions of Kyle Payne might serve as a wake up call for some feminists in this regard could be the one good thing to come out of Jane Doe’s experience. Something has to.

Categories: Feminism

103 responses so far ↓

  • stormy // July 13, 2008 at 5:41 am | Reply

    Why did Kyle Payne cause such a big whoop in the blogs I read? Man sexually assaults woman. It’s just situation normal as far as I can see. Predatory men will manipulate themselves into women’s spaces for their own spurious ends, including feminism.

    What a betrayal.

    And people wonder WHY separatism is such a bad thing? Females can only keep themselves safe by not trusting ANY males, and sadly, even the ones that declare that they are on ‘our side’.

  • delphyne // July 13, 2008 at 5:31 pm | Reply

    Very much agree, witchy. When the pro-pornies start attacking someone like Max Hardcore for sexually assaulting and raping women and promoting the sexual abuse of women then I’ll believe that they have a sincere interest in ending male sexual violence against women. Until then, whatever. It’s just manufactured outrage, created to have another pop at anti-porn radical feminists.

    Kyle Payne is a scumbag, but it’s really common for male abusers to dress themselves up as “good” people getting involved with victims and charity work when really all they are doing is disguising their predatory acts. If a man is sincerely pro-feminist he will spend his time attacking masculinity and men who oppress women and will do his best to betray the male brotherhood. If he’s not doing that he’s no use to us. Kyle Payne sounds like he was a self-promoting wanker as well as being a predator and was using feminism and anti-porn activism to make a name for himself as well as hide his real activities.

    I do disagree with one thing though:

    “Anyone who believes Kyle Payne is representative of anti-pornography feminism needs to speak (courteously) more with us.”

    They don’t believe it. It’s just more lies from the lying liars. They’re making political hay from it which is despicable.

  • jennifer drew // July 13, 2008 at 7:04 pm | Reply

    Kyle Payne is like so many anti-feminists who talk the talk but never, ever walk the walk.

    Witness the outcries which happen whenever a male stranger rapes and or/ commits sexual violence against a young female child. The media and society drive themselves into a frenzy claiming this male sexual predator is a monster etc. etc. But whenever a known man rapes and/or sexually abuses a woman/girl he knows then society and the media immediately claim the woman/girl is lying.

    Payne is like so many porners and their cohorts who will do anything and everything to destroy feminism and those women who are trying to challenge men’s ingrained belief it is their right to rape and sexually abuse women and girls in whatever way they wish. This includes attempting to ‘respectabalise’ pornography and prostitution both of which can never, ever be separated.

    Quite agree witchy – anyone including myself can go along to a conference and claim ‘but I am a researcher in male sexual violence’ but what really counts is whether or not I and others actually do challenge male domination by activist work or whether I simply seek to garner ‘glorified praise.’ Action not words decides whether or not one is a ‘feminist.’

    Psychoanalyse Payne – yet another attempt at justifying/excusing his actions. No need anyone – the real reason is because Payne gets off on power – like so many men who get a taste for male power and domination over women and girls. Take a look at how boys are still socialised in to misogynstic, dominant notions of what supposedly passes for masculinity. Then try claiming boys and men who dominate, rape and control women and girls are in need of therapy.

  • L.M. // July 13, 2008 at 8:15 pm | Reply

    ” Many men describe themselves as ‘pro-feminist’ when, in reality, they’re nothing of the sort. Many men seem to get off on being party to women’s discussions of the realities of having to share the world with people like them and our attempts to change things for the better for all of us. Cooing all the while and describing themselves as ‘pro-feminist’ but actually doing bugger all to change anything because they’re quite fine with things as they are thank you very much”
    I think that it’s because some feminists – even radical feminists – have trusted or do trust men as feminist allies. (A lot of us are re-evaluating our trust right now.) I had not heard of KP before, but several other feminist bloggers that I respect had read his blog and accepted him as a feminist ally.
    I really have no stomach for reading anything of his now, but he did talk a good game and so some women believed and trusted him. I don’t think that they should be condemned for it*; he is the one who lied and misrepresented himself. The women who did trust him are probably angry and betrayed and horrified that they supported and trusted someone who turned out to be a misogynist and criminal.
    Being raised in a patriarchy means being raised to live under the rule of men, so for me at least, it is difficult to reject that, to get out of the mindset of trusting the right sort of men. It took me so long to get to radical feminism (via liberal feminism and faux feminism before that), because it was too difficult for me to even *think* that all men or the very great majority of men, were abusive and sexist.
    It is easier to think that some men will reject or un-learn patriarchy, that there are some men who can be trusted, rather than believe that all of them will sexually assault or abuse given the right circumstances.

    “I have read criticisms of the language used by committed anti-pornography activists as being pornographically indulgent; insinuating that the writer is getting off on the sexual degredation of women when all they’re doing is simply quoting the language used by pornographers to illustrate their point”
    Anyone who compares the testimonies of rape and prostitution survivors and their allies to erotic material is disgusting. The testimonies always have the woman’s humanity – which is missing from violent porn – at the center, and more unforgettable and affecting than the violence and degradation is the physical pain and psychological damage that has been suffered.

    *I’m not saying that witchy-woo or any of the commenters are condemning women who were misled into trusting this guy

  • Laurelin // July 13, 2008 at 10:32 pm | Reply

    I would love to see some criticism of Max Hardcore. He does what Kyle Payne did every day, the evil fucker.

    I would also like to see some recognition on sex positive blogs of the misogyny and abusive behaviour of those male ‘allies’ who spend their pointless lives trying to silence us. I sha’n't hold my breath, though *rolls eyes*

  • rmott62 // July 14, 2008 at 7:25 am | Reply

    This whole bouhaha over one man caught out filming a sexual assualt makes me very angry. For I cannot see what make him so “special”.
    Men film amateur porn all the time, most are lauded for it. Most would not consider it to be a crime.
    Where is the outcry when lad’s mags encourage their readers to make peeping tom films of their “girlfriends”.
    Where is the outcry when “happy slapping” is of violent gang-rapes by teenage boys on teenage girls.
    The only protest that is strong about those events comes from radical feminists.
    All too often that type of filming is disconnected from porn, and made into an indivivual bad act. But filming for rape or voyeurism is making porn.
    What has anger me is that as an ex-prostitute, I know men who used prostituted women and girls will often film their rapes.
    Some will film for their own use. But, many of the “actresses” in porn are prostituted women and girls. They are move from one aspect of the sex trade to another.
    To make porn, especially sadistic porn, it is convenient to use prostituted women and girls for they can be easier to control. This can be because many have lived with male violence for so long, that are deadened to pain and cannot have emotions.
    These films are of rape. But they are disguised as consent.
    Finally, as someone who writes testimonies of my experiences, I am always scared that my words may turn on some men. But, I know men who get kicks from reading or viewing women’s truths will find porn where they can.
    I feel one way to bring about an end to trivialising of male violence. women need to say their truths with power and grief.

  • allecto // July 14, 2008 at 8:08 am | Reply

    Thank you so much for this post, Witchy. This is exactly how I feel about the situation too.

    I would also like to see some recognition on sex positive blogs of the misogyny and abusive behaviour of those male ‘allies’ who spend their pointless lives trying to silence us. I sha’n’t hold my breath, though *rolls eyes*

    Yeah, Laurelin. That’ll be the day.

  • dreamy5 // July 14, 2008 at 4:09 pm | Reply

    ‘And people wonder WHY separatism is such a bad thing? Females can only keep themselves safe by not trusting ANY males, and sadly, even the ones that declare that they are on ‘our side’.”

    “It is easier to think that some men will reject or un-learn patriarchy, that there are some men who can be trusted, rather than believe that all of them will sexually assault or abuse given the right circumstances.”

    Witchy, Jack is a man. My son will be a man. Do you support these statements? How is this not sexist?

  • buggle // July 14, 2008 at 7:58 pm | Reply

    Thanks witchy- nice post. I agree with what you said. Definitely, this is an awful person. Disgusting. But why are the pro-porn bloggers are upset about this? Why does this upset them so much, when there are men like this every damn day who film their abuse? Annoying.

    This also just brings up the whole Alas, a blog thing for me. This guy is linked on many, many feminist blogs. And his blog is owned and used by a porn company. This “feminist” man sold out to a porn company. And feminist blogs still link to him. I link my blog to Shapely Prose, and she links to Alas, which is crazy to me! Why do we accept these men who are assholes?

  • Endor // July 14, 2008 at 8:59 pm | Reply

    “It is easier to think that some men will reject or un-learn patriarchy, that there are some men who can be trusted, rather than believe that all of them will sexually assault or abuse given the right circumstances.”

    Change that to: “rather than believe that all of them COULD sexually assault or abuse given the right circumstances.”
    and I’m right there with you.

  • witchywoo // July 14, 2008 at 10:35 pm | Reply

    Dreamy – personally, I am very distrustful of men in general. The few enlightened men who properly understand why this is don’t feel slighted but recognise it as a necessary part of my self protection.

    I’m not entirely sure that I believe all men will necessarily choose to sexually assault or abuse given the right circumstances. It’s a choice they’re free to make.

    I certainly don’t believe that men are natural born rapists but, in the current climate, most rapists are men.

  • riv // July 14, 2008 at 10:42 pm | Reply

    I don’t see any difference between this man and the priest pedos who rape little children they are “saving” for Christ, the gym teacher who *is* a gym teacher so he can fondle the girls as they vault the horse, the dedicated foster parent dad who rapes the little children he’s supposed to be protecting, the blogger pimp who called himself a feminist because he was linked off a feminist women’s health website (until they found out).

  • dreamy5 // July 14, 2008 at 10:47 pm | Reply

    I agree that the patriarchy enables assault/brutality/murder of women. But shouldn’t we be careful to not lump all men into that category?

    There are several issues here. First, let’s remember self-fulfilling prophecy. No, expecting all men to behave brutally will not cause a good man to become a rapist. But if we have that expectation, men “on the fence” so-to-speak might figure “What the hell?” This is important to WOMEN: If we give even one man an “excuse” (he thinks “I’m supposed to be a rapist, so why not?”) that’s another (or ten) women raped who might not have been otherwise.

    I am NOT making rape the woman’s responsibility. What I am doing is saying we might want to do everything in our power to protect each other. Expectations of behavior can be one factor in behavior. Perhaps it would be wisest to expect the best but guard against the worst, hmmmm?

    Secondly, stereotyping men is no better than stereotyping women. Yes, many (maybe most) men are/have the capacity to victimize. What about those who don’t?

    Witchy, I know how you feel. and you know how I feel. Sisters, always, but sometimes sisters disagree. Still, we listen to each other, no?

  • dreamy5 // July 14, 2008 at 10:51 pm | Reply

    Sorry, forgot the link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy

    I don’t submit that having the expectation makes a behavior come true, but I do think it can increase the likelihood.

    AGAIN–I do not submit it is anyone’s fault but the abuser/rapist.

  • witchywoo // July 14, 2008 at 11:33 pm | Reply

    Yes Dreamy, we’ll always listen to each other – as sisters do :)
    (And I know that that wink isn’t meant to be there but I can’t make it go away!)

    There is an argument that says we have been actively expecting the best from men while guarding against the worst for thousands of years but it hasn’t worked. And I’d be seriously happy if men themselves took some responsibility in changing this but I don’t see it happening.

    I’m afraid those men who choose not to victimise are in danger of falling off the radar as the numbers of women and children who are becoming casualties of those who do choose to victimise is ever increasing. It’s those women and children I’m concerned with and I’d expect a ‘good’ man to understand that.

  • dreamy5 // July 14, 2008 at 11:38 pm | Reply

    Yes, I think “good men” do. And that’s what might make the “you can’t trust a man” thing more hurtful to them. Making it specific, what about Jack? Does he deserved to be lumped with the abusers/rapists?

    Now, you know and I know I would trust Jack with my life. In fact, he’s #2 in line to raise my children if something happens to both their father and me. We also know I’ve been foolishly trusting in the past. Still, does his possession of a penis make him a rapist-if-able? No. I would stake my very life on that.

    And I think being lumped in with the men we’re talking about would be hurtful to him.

  • witchywoo // July 14, 2008 at 11:48 pm | Reply

    I think Jack is one of the more enlightened men who would understand women’s distrust as a necessary part of their self protection and not be hurt by it.

    Does he know we’re talking about him?

  • dreamy5 // July 14, 2008 at 11:48 pm | Reply

    Think we should tell him?

  • witchywoo // July 14, 2008 at 11:52 pm | Reply

    It might be polite ;)

  • dreamy5 // July 14, 2008 at 11:56 pm | Reply

    Ok, YOU wake him up!

  • Jack // July 15, 2008 at 9:29 am | Reply

    ‘Does he know we’re talking about him?’

    ‘Think we should tell him?’

    Thank you, Witchy – and Dreamy is being disingenuous (as always!) because I already knew my name was going to come up.

    ‘I think Jack is one of the more enlightened men who would understand women’s distrust as a necessary part of their self protection and not be hurt by it.’

    That was pretty much the nature of my response to what Dreamy said!

    And given that a necessary part of self-identifying as a pro-feminist is constantly interrogating the gendered nature of my own behaviour, I am hardly surprised (or hurt) that a woman might view me with distrust. I view me with distrust sometimes!

    On the other hand, I tend to agree with Dreamy about separatism (and not just because she is using a sociologist to back up her argument!).

  • polly styrene // July 15, 2008 at 10:57 am | Reply

    What is strikingly missing for me from much of the analysis of ‘male feminists’ is male privilege and the effect it has, not just on men, but on women. LM’s post on this was particularly good I think. Women are raised, not just to trust men, but to value them more highly. So the ‘anti-feminist men’ are seen as some great prize by some- look the men are taking an interest, that legitimates what we’re saying.

    NO IT DOESN’T. The word of men is not ‘worth’ more than the word of women, with regard to feminism it is worth considerably less, but the voice of men is still privileged by so many women.

  • dreamy5 // July 15, 2008 at 2:17 pm | Reply

    Jack, you jerk! Not disingenuous..discreet! I hadn’t permission from you to relate we’d talked.

    Witchy, I’m now in the you can’t trust them camp! (Laughing now.)

  • Lara // July 15, 2008 at 5:21 pm | Reply

    Oh for fuck’s sake, I wish women would stop trying to say “ohh, not MY Nigel, he would never do that!” Pfsh, yeah right. I am sorry to come off as being really rude and direct, because this is a really sensitive subject. But understand, y0ur husband or son or whatever my treat YOU well, but have you ever considered how he might treat other women? It’s incredibly hard to think and believe that the men closest to me could very well be rapists, I struggle a lot with that every day. But you know what? It’s a big slap in the face to other women to deny that the men in my life would ever hurt another woman. As Polly pointed out, men, even if they are “feminists,” have male privilege. Period. And with that privilege comes the power to abuse. And that’s usually how it ends up. Sad, but true.
    Most women believe men are just so great and dandy, do you think that’s stopped men from raping us? Stop trying to tell yourself, dreamy5, that radical/separatist feminists are just perpetuating the problem for themselves by not trusting men.
    I bet you that all of the men I’ve ever slept with or dated (who I thought, and STILL think, are so wonderful and “feminist” and sweet) have probably raped or abused a woman at least once in their lives. It is really hard for me to deal with, but to deny it would be extremely misogynist and a slap in the face to those women that were abused/raped.
    Stop saying, too, that stereotypes of men are “just as bad as stereotypes for women.” There is already a huge power differential between men and women, generally (of course, this varies a bit depending on race, class, etc.). Men already have tons of male privilege, so “stereotyping” them doesn’t have even remotely the same effect as stereotyping women. I mean, FFS, we are talking about thousands of years of sexual oppression here…how does that not make a tremendous difference?

  • Lara // July 15, 2008 at 5:25 pm | Reply

    Here is a comment by Littoral Mermaid at her own blog post that really hits the nail on the head:

    “And also, I really do not believe women when they say their boyfriends/husbands or male relatives are feminists. Maybe to them. But I’m relatively lower-status where I live – mostly because I’m not as rich or thin as most other women – and believe me, I’ve seen quite a bit how horrible men are to women who they perceive as “beneath them” socially*. Their higher-status women seldom notice or seldom care.

    *and I’m sure it’s even worse for women who actually are fat or poor, or a less acceptable race/ethnic group, lesbian, disabled, etc. – I saw a lot of male cruelty towards disabled and overweight girls in high school”

    This is NOT to say that I do not “trust” or think you are being dishonest in any way, dreamy5, but I think in many ways we do not want to believe that the men in our lives could be abusive/racist/classist, etc.

  • allecto // July 16, 2008 at 8:32 am | Reply

    Women are raised, not just to trust men, but to value them more highly. So the ‘anti-feminist men’ are seen as some great prize by some- look the men are taking an interest, that legitimates what we’re saying.

    Yeah, I hate the Special Men thing too Polly. Like child care is underpaid, undervalued, unskilled, instinctive, not real work until… a man does it and then suddenly it is really hard work and ‘look at how good he is with children’ blah, blah, blah ad nauseum.

    The same thing happens with feminism. the pro-feminist man is raised on a pedestal and we are all amazed by the depth of his insights etc, etc. Even though everything he has realised about the world was paid for in women’s blood and a woman doing the same work is vilified by both men and women.

  • stormy // July 16, 2008 at 8:02 pm | Reply

    Dreamy, your comment(s) come across as “not my Nigel”.

    Fact: Acquaintance Rape is the most common type of rape.

    Fact: Most rapists use this trust that women have of men they know, to rape them.

    This does not necessarily mean that all men are rapists, but most rapists are men.

    Hence, separatism dramatically reduces the likelihood of being raped (by a male that you know).

    You have a son. It sounds extremely likely that, if in the future, your son rapes or is accused of rape, that you will automatically rally to his defence. How is this feminist? How is this anti-rape?

    Remember, all rapists are/were somebody’s son.
    Most come from ‘good homes’ and ‘good backgrounds’.

    How is any woman to pick them out of a line up? (rapists vs non-rapists) I certainly cannot pick them by sight. Nor can I pick the child molestors by sight. Do you have a secret gift that you can share with the millions of women that have been raped, other than being nice to all men just in case they aren’t rapists?

    There was a story in the (UK) news today of a male nurse, who used his position to target young women with eating disorders/mental health issues to get them into a sexual ‘relationship’. They trusted Nurse Nigel. I am sure he has a mother, willing to defend him “not my Nigel!”.

    I am not saying your son will grow up to be a rapist. But in the current climate, statistically, a high probability.

    Just like I avoid drinking and driving to avoid car accidents, I avoid males to reduce the likelihood of being raped. Thus far, a successful strategy.

  • Jeanne // July 16, 2008 at 10:43 pm | Reply

    You don’t know me but if I may make a comment……

    I have been married to a wonderful man for almost 28 years. I have also raised two sons and I know for a fact that they would never rape or abuse women, because I know them very very well.
    I have seen them interact with women and seen them in relationships.

    Obviously some of you have had bad experiences with men and for that I’m truly sorry, but to assume “all men” are capable of this, is like my saying that all feminists are bitter and hate men.

    No man has ever attempted to rape or abuse me in my 48 years of life, or the lives of my sisters, my mother, my aunt and many other women I know.

    Anyway, just my two cents. Thanks for the opportunity to express my opinion.

    Jeanne

  • witchywoo // July 17, 2008 at 12:23 am | Reply

    Hello Jeanne :) (actually, I do remember you and you’re more than welcome to express your opinion here.)

    No man has ever attempted to rape or abuse me in my 48 years of life, or the lives of my sisters, my mother, my aunt and many other women I know.

    I’m very pleased to hear that you have been lucky so far – sincerely – but no woman on Earth can assume that an attempt to sexually assault her will never be made because rapists and abusers don’t have it tattooed on their foreheads so we can’t distinguish them. They all look just like men and there’s no way of discerning those who would, those who wouldn’t, those who might given certain circumstances, those who do but don’t believe they do or those who have it in mind to at any given moment. So in the long run it’s safer for women and children to be deeply suspicious and proceed with extreme caution for their own safety.

    This isn’t said as a result of “bad experiences with men” – more to avoid bad experiences with men. The sexual violence statistics are horrendous and prompt self protection strategies over and above the precautions that women routinely have to take on a daily basis without even thinking about it. As far as I’m aware, there are no statistics that illustrate the bitterness and man hating capacity of feminists – only hearsay.

    The majority of women find it hard to believe that men close to them could be capable of sexual assault but, as stormy said, all rapists are/were somebody’s son.

  • dreamy5 // July 17, 2008 at 3:25 am | Reply

    I’m so sorry all of you have had such miserable experiences with men. But that doesn’t excuse discrimination based on possession of a penis.

    I’m so sorry all of you have had such miserable experiences with men. But that doesn’t excuse discrimination based on possession of a penis.

    Yes, they have far more power than we. No, not all are rapists.

    I’m of color. Most of you are likely Euro-descent (meaning “White”). My ancestors were systematically targeted for extermination by yours (Brits, specifically, along with the Dutch, etc., etc., etc.,). Currently, my ethic group is still systematically discriminated against by “Whitey.” Using your logic, I’m justified in saying every White mother-fucker is out to get me and not to trust you.

    How does it feel, Whitey? Hmmmm?

  • dreamy5 // July 17, 2008 at 3:27 am | Reply

    Witchy, sorry about the double first paragraph and typo…it hung on me in transmission.

  • dreamy5 // July 17, 2008 at 3:39 am | Reply

    The simple fact is that lumping all members of any group into any behavioral category is discrimination, period. If anyone should know how it feels to be discriminated against, its women.

    Think about it. Being a victim does NOT justify victimizing. NOT all men are rapists or potential rapists, just as not all White people are murderers, thieves and abusers.

    Think about it.

    Those who know the damage discrimination does should be the LAST to turn around and do the same. And the power differential is not excuse. Period.

    Think about it.

  • L.M. // July 17, 2008 at 2:18 pm | Reply

    Why are we so concerned with hurting men’s feelings? The point of feminism is not to make men happy, and it is indeed one of the only things in this world that does not revolve around catering to men.
    Not trusting men and suspecting them to be potential rapists is not about being cruel to men, it’s about safety. I’m able-bodied and if a disabled person didn’t really trust me, that would not hurt my feelings, I would see it as a sad reflection of a world that sets up a hierarchy of able-bodied vs. disabled and the frequent abuse of power by the former.

    Oh and thanks for the mentions, Polly Styrene and Lara!

  • dreamy5 // July 17, 2008 at 3:37 pm | Reply

    It’s not really about hurting anyone’s feelings, although if that makes anyone stop and think, fine. The bottom line is that it’s about walking the walk and talking the talk, as they say. If we espouse unfair treatment, discrimination, being stereotyped, or in any way being treated in a given way based on group membership, what credibility do we have? If we advocate equal opportunity and just treatment for ourselves, we must do our best to live by the words we preach.

    I believe in just treatment for all. I am careful and aware that I can be victimized, and that men are more likely to physically victimize me than women. That is not the same as making sweeping statements that you cannot trust any given group.

    This is my final post on the subject. I had hoped to make a few people think. This sort of “I’m discriminated against so I can treat people any way I want” is hypocritical. And it’s damaging to women.

    That’s feminist, by the way. Believing what one espouses and trying to live by those principles, that’s feminist.

  • polly styrene // July 17, 2008 at 4:28 pm | Reply

    I’m pleased you’ve never been raped or sexually assaulted Jeanne, but I have, and that was by supposedly ‘trustworthy, nice, normal’ guys. Yes you believe your male relatives have never raped/assaulted anyone, I believe that my male relatives have never raped/assaulted anyone. The point is I don’t KNOW that, I believe it.
    There’s a difference. Sex offenders don’t, as has been pointed out a million times before, come with ‘Rapist’ handily tattooed on their forehead.

    As a white woman (unlike at least two of those who Dreamy was addressing – what was that about assumptions again? ) I would find it perfectly reasonable that BME women wish to live/organise separately. In fact I think it’s more or less essential for them to do this (see my current post on Southall Black Sisters). I don’t assume that by doing this they are discriminating against white people – though like all white people I DO have internalised racism. I do recognise though that I have privilege and I don’t have the right to demand that the women who don’t have that privilege treat me as a special case because I’m not one of ‘those’ white people.

  • Jeanne // July 17, 2008 at 4:49 pm | Reply

    I must say, I agree with Dreamy 100%!!

    Right on sister!!

    Jeanne :)

  • dreamy5 // July 17, 2008 at 4:59 pm | Reply

    Just to be specific, the comment read “MOST of you are LIKELY Euro-descent.”

  • joankelly6000 // July 17, 2008 at 6:44 pm | Reply

    It is outrageous to me that you, dreamy5, equate the expression of suspicion towards class-male, based on how a large amount of men in that class behave, with discrimination – with VICTIMIZING, are you motherfucking kidding me?

    Your comparison with racism also fails – it is not discrimination or victimization for any person of color, particularly any woman of color, to operate under the premise that I, as a white woman, may betray her because of my racism, and to thus be wary of interacting with me.

    You know what’s fucking fantastic, though, is when women who obviously have not been raped by someone they loved and/or trusted come in and lecture me about how to feel towards men and how to express those feelings.

    Please go find the MRA sites where your self-righteous bullshit will find a welcoming home.

    Think about it.

  • thebewilderness // July 17, 2008 at 9:06 pm | Reply

    “I’m so sorry all of you have had such miserable experiences with men. But that doesn’t excuse discrimination based on possession of a penis.”

    Criminy NO! Just because you have been raped and abused by men is no excuse for discriminating against them by denying them the opportunity to rape and abuse you.

    That is one goofy argument you have there. Equally silly is the position that if a thing is outside of your experience it does not exist, all evidence to the contrary. If you choose to operate on the basis of myth, that is certainly your right. Your objections to others operating on the basis of reality is specious codswollop.

  • Sarah // July 17, 2008 at 9:26 pm | Reply

    Sex offenders don’t, as has been pointed out a million times before, come with ‘Rapist’ handily tattooed on their forehead.

    Perhaps they should? Conviction, sentence and tattoo?

  • stormy // July 18, 2008 at 5:54 am | Reply

    I am being lazy here, but ditto to Polly and JoanKelly6000.

    Precaution is not victimisation.

    Jeanne: but to assume “all men” are capable of this, is like my saying that all feminists are bitter and hate men

    Actually, all men are capable of rape (they have the equipment, and usually the greater strength). However, that is not the same as saying ‘all men are rapists’, which you seem to be implying we are saying. The problem lies in distinguishing between the two groups (rapists and non-rapists).

    An imaginary line-up, of average blokes, that includes Jeanne’s two sons. We are to determine, by sight, which are: rapists, future rapists, and non-rapists.

    And Jeanne. Sorry to burst your bubble, but how your sons may behave in front of you with their wives/gfs, is not necessarily an indication of how they behave in private, nor in the bedroom. Plenty of spouse-abusers appear, to the rest of the community, family and close friends, as “the perfect man”. Take Julia Pemberton for example. Her family did NOT know the 20+ years of hell she lived through with her husband (and murderer) Alan Pemberton. Just ask Frank Mullane, her brother, who now campaigns to raise awareness about DV. Julia’s family never knew what went on behind closed doors, until she left him.

    Instead of repeating the “not all menz are evil” mantra, try to see the reality that a significant percentage of males are either dangerous or deadly to females.

  • Polly Styrene // July 18, 2008 at 7:14 am | Reply

    When I rule the word Sarah…….. But you’d have to convict them first, unfortunately. And we all know how hard that is.

  • CoolAunt // July 18, 2008 at 5:55 pm | Reply

    Sarah, I believe the tattoo system would be much more effective in protecting the the public than the current sex registry method being (theoretically) used in the US. Citizens wouldn’t be tasked with checking the registry to know which of their neighbors, coworkers, family members, etc., are sex offenders nor would we have to depend on the criminals themselves to keep the registry updated.

    Dreamy, are you in love with a man at present? Your comments here certainly read like a woman in love. I’ve said and written similar about men when I’ve been in love.

    The truth is, however, that women have treated, and continue to treat, men with kindness, compassion, gentleness, trust, etc., for thousands of years. We’ve asked kindly to be treated the same by them for thousands of years as well. So far, asking kindly to be treated as autonomous human beings has yielded nothing but the same treatment we’ve received for the past thousands of years, making it plain that treating men with kindness and trust while asking nicely for autonomy isn’t working and never will. So, we’ve stopped asking nicely and have begun demanding to be treated as humans in whatever terms we wish to use.

    As for reverse discrimination of men, that is impossible, just as reverse discrimination of whites by blacks is impossible and for the same reason: those with little or no power can not discriminate against those who hold the most or all of the power. In other words, until women are as powerful as men and there is true equality between the sexes, however distrusting and unkind women’s behavior toward and speech about men, it causes men no harm as they remain in power and control. The oppressed should never feel obliged to be kind to their oppressors.

  • stormy // July 18, 2008 at 8:19 pm | Reply

    Here’s an article I recommend that Dreamy & Jeanne read:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/02/ukcrime.women

    *head of out sand time*

  • dreamy5 // July 18, 2008 at 8:54 pm | Reply

    I am not saying to trust blindly. I am not saying being cautious is wrong or bad. I am saying that assuming all men are potential rapists is a problem. Yes they have penises. It takes more than a penis to be a rapist. All women have the ability to kill another person (excluding women who are completely paralyzed or some other extreme situation). We can all find a weapon, drive a car, get a knife, bump into someone at the train station platform, whatever (extreme situations noted and acknowledged). Should all women be viewed as potential murderers?

    Cool Aunt, I am not “in love,” or at least in the way you mean. I do have a son, but I also have a daughter. I am in love, if you will, with equality, with certain ideals to which I cling. These ideals, if they don’t exist, if I don’t commit to them, would render this a world I have no desire to inhabit. Yes, Dona Quixote lives.

    I’m aware of the sociological power differential definition. I am not a sociologist. I deal in individuals. And individuals can be hurt whether or not they belong to a power group. So, yes, it can “hurt” White men. (I have far less sympathy for White men than for women and either gender of color, but they still have feelings, yes?)

    Joan Kelly, I will not respond to your post with anything other than two points. First, you don’t know my history and I will not use my history to influence my arguments either way. Second, you have been victimized. I know you will not believe this, but I am so very very sorry to hear that…it’s happened to far too m any women. Your anger is not surprising, nor will I take offense to it. How could I?

    Lastly, I would ask that perhaps we not confuse the results of being brutalized, be it by someone we trusted or not, with feminism. Being angry and mistrustful makes a lot of sense for someone who has been in that situation. But it’s not what “feminism” is all about. Feminism is about equality.

  • Lara // July 18, 2008 at 9:54 pm | Reply

    Well, dreamy, you can take your assumptions about my race and throw ‘em down the trash since I am also a woman of color: I am North African. Why the assumption that most of us are white anyway? Did you think most radical feminists were white?
    And don’t turn this into a “oh, you women just hate men because you’ve been abused and you’re all pathological and bitter.” I am deeply offended by this notion. There is a VERY valid concern over the existence of men in spaces of women. There is every valid reason for women to be suspicious of men. Stop putting the onus on us to be nice to men. If men really gave a shit about our humanity, they would be understanding if we didn’t want them around. Period.

    “This is my final post on the subject. I had hoped to make a few people think. ”

    Well, your patronizing tone with us was pretty damned obvious earlier, at least to me. No, being suspicious of men is NOT the same as discriminating against women. Get the idea that women and men are treated equally out of your head. If someone black is suspicious of white people, how can a white person blame them? That black person has every legitimate reason to be suspicious and on-guard.

    Right on, joankelly and stormy. I am sick of this condescending bullshit. I’ve never been raped by a man either, but I still have every right to be suspicious. Being weary of men (because of their very REAL abuse of us) is NOT the same as men fuckin abusing us, k?
    The extent to which you try to deny the prevalence of male violence against women is unfuckingbelievable. And I still can’t get it out of my head that you think you’re the one woman of color who can speak on this.
    Discrimination against men? My sandnigger ass….

  • dreamy5 // July 19, 2008 at 2:56 am | Reply

    I have to say, publicly, that Joan Kelly had the nerve and the honesty to address this with me further on my own little blog.

    I admire that. My respect for Joan is quite high at the moment. I may not agree with her, but I respect the hell out of her (at least, right now I do!).

  • dreamy5 // July 19, 2008 at 3:02 am | Reply

    Further, Joan suggested that I did not “did not protest a sweeping condemnation of all men.” That is exactly what I was trying to say. If it did not come across, and if I did sound, in Joan’s words “condescending,” that is my fault and I do apologize. I can get quite passionate, tis true. If it comes across other than I admit, I assume responsibility.

    So, let me rephrase: Assuming all men are rapists-in-waiting is not ok. It’s not feminism.

  • dreamy5 // July 19, 2008 at 11:32 am | Reply

    Lara, please read what I said rather than reading INTO what I said.

  • delphyne // July 19, 2008 at 1:06 pm | Reply

    “Feminism is about equality.”

    Hi Dreamy, this is probably the source of the dispute right here. For most radical feminists feminism is about liberation from male oppression. If you keep your focus on equality you end up twisting yourself in knots trying to be “fair” to men, because if everybody has to be equal then men have to be equal too, right?

    Of course the point is men and women are coming from two very different positions. Men as a group have achieved dominance over women through violence, rape and murder, that has gone unchecked over thousands of years. There is no equivalent treatment of men by women. To fight for “fairness” to men whilst they are still carrying out femicide against us is to maintain the status quo.

    It will be difficult to accept this concept if you only choose to deal with individuals whilst ignoring the global position of women as a group. Once you start looking at that it’s impossible to ignore the power dynamics and actions that men have used to keep women subordinate to them. It’s also impossible to keep believing that men’s hurt feelings are more important than the broken bodies, minds and lives of women who have been destroyed in order to keep men in number one position.

    Just as a matter of interest though, you say you believe in equality. Who or what do you think has stopped women being equal to men up until now?

  • stormy // July 19, 2008 at 1:06 pm | Reply

    Worth reiterating CoolAunt, for those who wish to continue ignoring the SCALE of the problem.

    The truth is, however, that women have treated, and continue to treat, men with kindness, compassion, gentleness, trust, etc., for thousands of years. We’ve asked kindly to be treated the same by them for thousands of years as well. So far, asking kindly to be treated as autonomous human beings has yielded nothing but the same treatment we’ve received for the past thousands of years, making it plain that treating men with kindness and trust while asking nicely for autonomy isn’t working and never will.

    And what JoanKelly said over at Dreamy’s:

    I didn’t say you hadn’t been raped. I said it was obvious – and it is, and remains so – that you haven’t been raped by someone you loved and/or trusted. No one who has – no one who has – ever miscasts the survival skill of caution as the equivalent of causing harm.

    Recommended reading for Dreamy and Jeanne:
    “I never called it rape” by Robin Warshaw.

    Rape by acquaintances (or indeed family members) remains a very hidden problem. So, for a feminist exercise, instead of spouting “be nice to menz, not all are bad”, how about raising awareness of the hidden scale of the problem? You see, the rapists just love it when you keep saying “be nice to menz, not all menz are rapists” because the rapists, looking like every other dude, can hide in amongst them, never being found out.

    And actually, I don’t want ‘equality’ with menz (on their terms, with their system). I want liberation from them. Yes, I have reclaimed being a ‘women’s libber’, as ‘feminist’ gets to mean just about anything these days, including ‘ask nicely to be treated as human, for only the benevolent master can grant such privileges’. phooey to that.

  • stormy // July 19, 2008 at 4:32 pm | Reply

    We seem to be on the same page delphyne, whilst our comments were in mod.

    Viva liberation!

  • CoolAunt // July 19, 2008 at 4:50 pm | Reply

    Stormy’s and Delphyne’s use of “liberation” better explain what I meant by “equality.” I suppose that in order to be equal, we’ll have to be liberated first, so I’m putting the cart before the horse again.

    Dreamy, you lost me with the condescending use of quotes around “in love.” So, now it’s my turn. I’m finished with this discussion because I’m wasting my time trying to explain the simple and obvious to someone who refuses to understand it.

  • Joan Kelly // July 19, 2008 at 6:59 pm | Reply

    Dreamy – thank you for the kind words, here and at your site.

    Here’s some stuff I’m seeing:

    You are interpreting the choice (or reflex, however one wishes to put it) of some of us to have a default setting of “not surprised when men rape, not going to assume any given man ISN’T capable of it” as being hateful towards men, which you identify (correctly in my view, although we disagree that it’s what’s going on here) as problematic – if it’s wrong for men to hate women for being women, the opposite is also true.

    When you talk about how any person is capable of murder, factually speaking it IS true that any given person is physically capable of harming another. Talking about that capability is not an attack on anybody. I feel like that’s where some of this wire-crossing is coming from.

    My starting point of believing that all men are capable of rape (physically able to, whether they would ever do it or not, and socially in some ways pressured to, whether they came to this life with a good heart or not) is not about believing all individual men are going to rape someone or have already.

    Capability is not a pronouncement of intent.

    But why I was getting furious was also because, just as it is not factual that all men do rape or all men have or all men will, it is equally untrue that most men don’t or haven’t or wouldn’t. There are too many men doing it for “most wouldn’t” to be true.

    That fact is not a comfort, nor is talking about it a rallying cry for girl-girl bonding, nor is talking about it a defense mechanism for those of us who have been harmed. It is, indeed, one of the hardest things to accept, no matter what one has been through that proves it.

    Most women would rather lose a fucking finger than believe in their hearts that the people they share the world with, the people they love and give birth to and raise and were raised by and all of that, do the things so many of them do.

    It is hard to describe the extent of the loss involved when one does accept that truth – the truth that so many men do it, and mathematically it is therefore guaranteed that many of those will be men that we know and love and trust(ed).

    It is really difficult to live with that and then ever talk about it (which is in itself hard to do, radfem blogs being quite the rare space in the world), and then to hear someone say that talking about it is harming men, and indeed, harming our own very souls.

    It seems clear that the idea of what feminism is, is not commonly agreed upon here. The idea that feminism means equality for everybody is not evil or stupid – it just is different than what feminism means to someone like me, which is locating one’s well-being outside of men’s interests, and doing whatever’s possible to make space for all women outside of men’s interests.

    Equality-centered feminism rests on the idea of being equal *to* something that already exists. As Stormy and maybe others mention here, I do not want to be equal to anything that already exists, least of all to the status of men. Nor do I want men to be “made equal” to the current status of women.

    Something I realized recently about myself is that while I am still quite incapable of a will towards separatism (although it does not strike me as a corrupt solution, incidentally), I am willing to be thought of as anti-man if that is what concerning myself first and foremost with women gets me labeled as.

    It’s not true that I’m anti-men, but it doesn’t hurt me OR men for any given person to have incorrect *beliefs* about me (not arguing that beliefs are the same as the actions one may choose to take based on those beliefs, like raping or killing a perceived man-hater, or conversely, eating male babies for breakfast, ahem). And with a finite amount of time in my life, I’m not willing to spend repetitive amounts of it explaining how I don’t hate men. I am always already in the process of not-hating men; it’s like, should I spend half my days reassuring people that yes, I’m still breathing, or just go about the business of taking in and expelling air and focusing on other stuff?

    Most of the world, most of the time, is concerned with men, whether it be from a will towards domination by men or a will towards justice for men whose lives lack a substantial amount of it. Most of it is about men. Most women are about men. I don’t hate men or women for that.

    But considering that there are so many people who are about men, I feel like that side is amply covered. Not that everything is “taken care of” – obviously, much is still amiss. But considering that so many people are thinking about men, exclusively or in addition to women, I feel like it has to be true that they can spare me, one lone woman, from those orbits. I don’t get why it is hurting anyone, especially men, for me to be pointed, if you will, towards women. That is not the same thing as being pointed hatefully towards men. It is only the absence of being pointed at men at all.

    None of the men in my life – at work, in my family, strangers, sometime sex partners, etc. – are suffering from my orientation towards women. None of them even have hurt feelings, although I am fairly out with my politics.

    In short, we’re not coming for your son or your friends or anybody else’s sons and friends, Dreamy. I don’t mean that flippantly – I really sense that you feel like we are trying to generate some movement to retaliate towards men on the basis of believing they all *could* be predators, and fuck it let god sort ‘em out, not our job or our concern.

    Hope something in this long winded comment made sense…

  • dreamy5 // July 20, 2008 at 7:33 am | Reply

    Well, the recent responses have given me something to think about. I am committed to equality and that won’t change. I’m also aware that men have far more power than women and that makes a difference.

    But….I need to ruminate on some of the points here. While I’m doing so, maybe I could as a few questions.

    How many of you have sons? How does that fit into the equation?

    Also, isn’t the case that assuming women are victims/potential victims ispo facto abrogate power we might otherswise claim? Don’t misunderstand…I know women have been and are victimized. But…is it not possible that by claiming a position of power we might actually gain power?

    That said, I’m off to think a bit.

  • dreamy5 // July 20, 2008 at 7:44 am | Reply

    Cool Aunt, stop jumping to conclusions. I used quotes because “in love” has not been operationalized and until it is, it’s highly questionable if we mean the same thing. I’m a scientist. Stop assuming.

  • delphyne // July 20, 2008 at 2:49 pm | Reply

    Dreamy, have you ever seen a group of oppressed people achieve power by pretending that they haven’t been victimised?

    For example in South Africa, black people defeated apartheid, but they didn’t do it by denying that they were horribly oppressed in the most violent and murderous ways by the whites there.

    Denying your own experience is actually a way of undermining your own power. It’s not possible to achieve power by wishful thinking. If it was women would be powerful already because plenty of us have been in denial for centuries about what men do to us. In fact it has only been when women’s liberation movements have looked at the condition of women square in the face and using that as their starting point that any movement has been made towards women reclaiming the power that men have stolen from us.

    If you want to take it down to an individual level, ignoring men’s violent victimisation of women whilst fighting to change the status of women, would be a bit like like going to relationship counselling with an abusive man and only talking about his lack of contribution to the housework and childcare whilst ignoring the fact that he beats his female partner every night.

    I’m going to ask you again, why is it that you think men have more power than women? Do you think they just got that power by magic or by some natural process unknown to any of us?

  • polly styrene // July 20, 2008 at 3:21 pm | Reply

    Dreamy, I don’t really see how assuming women are victims/potential victims ‘abrogates power’ because it is a statement of fact. Most rape and sexual assualt is hidden. Very few people know I’ve experienced sexual assault – only friends I trust.

    It would abrogate power if women just took the position that there is nothing we can do about being victims/potential victims but no one is suggesting that.

    What we are suggesting is that women need to wake up to reality and stop denying the truth. Which is that the only sure and certain way you can avoid rape is to avoid men, or at least avoid ever being alone with a man. Because you can’t tell who is a rapist and who isn’t.

  • polly styrene // July 20, 2008 at 3:23 pm | Reply

    Oh and there was a very famous study of college students where 60% of them ADMITTED that they would rape if they were certain they could get away with it.

  • Mary Sunshine // July 20, 2008 at 3:29 pm | Reply

    Oh, well.

    A woman has a son

    That changes everything, doesn’t it?

  • Sarah // July 20, 2008 at 5:10 pm | Reply

    You know Mary, in all seriousness (as I think that comment was dripping with sarcasm and I’m sure I saw rolling eyes?) , I think in a way, it does change everything.

    I have a son, he’s 8. I look at him and I think – will he grow up to rape and abuse, will he look at porn and think it’s normal? And close on the heels of that I’m trying to find ways to teach him that those things aren’t right in my view, and in the view of other adult women that he respects (Witchy, your name comes up LOADS in those conversations with him and he now turns over certain newspapers in tesco so there are no breasts showing, and makes me walk on the other side of the road from the Ann Summers shop because he doesn’t like it!) I also wonder how I will feel if he chooses to turn his back on that teaching as he grows. Will I be saying Not my lad….

    I also have a daughter. Being a parent is the hardest job there is.

  • CoolAunt // July 20, 2008 at 8:38 pm | Reply

    Well, Dreamy the Scientist, you must be a hell of a lot smarter than I am because I can’t make heads or tails of your last comment to me. Being in love hasn’t been operationalized? Wtf does that mean? And because you’re a scientist, I’m therefore assuming? Assuming what? That your condescension is exactly that?

    You’ve been extremely condescending throughout this comments section. Even your pointing out to me that you’re a scientist is condescending, the message being that your use of language is somehow right and mine is somehow wrong.

    Continue treating men with blind trust and unearned respect. I hope it works out for you. I really mean that without a tad of sarcasm or passive aggression.

    As for me, I really am finished with your snarky, condescending ass this time. Respond to me if you wish and however you want to. You’ll not provoke another comment from me as I’ve had enough of your bullshit.

  • dreamy5 // July 20, 2008 at 9:29 pm | Reply

    I am aware of that study. Sixty percent is a huge number, and it’s probably more. But, there are a few things to consider. First, that means forty percent would not. Now, going back to my original comments, please note I never said that sexual assault is not a problem. I never said women should not be cautious and careful. I, in fact, said women should and need to. I said this sentiment is a problem: “Females can only keep themselves safe by not trusting ANY males, and sadly, even the ones that declare that they are on ‘our side’.” Not trusting ANY males. I never said trust carelessly (though I tend to be far too trusting, no denial there). I never said trust everyone. I said not trusting ANY male is a problem. Deeming a person as a rapist-in-waiting (which is how this sounds to me) due to possession of a penis is a problem…for me.
    Now, back to the question of equality. When does equality begin to matter? Say we gain superiority in terms of power, economics, and status. What then? More to the point, if we don’t pursue equality, how are we different from the ruling class?
    Joan , you said “if it’s wrong for men to hate women for being women, the opposite is also true.” Here is another point where we part company. Not all men do. Many do, perhaps most, but not all men.
    Another thought: From what I know of psychology, one must act with power to gain power. Any sociologists here? I’m on a holiday weekend at the moment, but when I return home I’m going to pull this article. Is anyone familiar with it?

    Quoting the abstract (Power, approach, and inhibition. Keltner, Dacher; Gruenfeld, Deborah H.; Anderson, Cameron.Psychological Review. 2003 Apr Vol 110(2) 265-284).

    This article examines how power influences behavior. Elevated power is associated with increased rewards and freedom and thereby activates approach-related tendencies. Reduced power is associated with increased threat, punishment, and social constraint and thereby activates inhibition-related tendencies. The authors derive predictions from recent theorizing about approach and inhibition and review relevant evidence. Specifically, power is associated with (a) positive affect, (b) attention to rewards, (c) automatic information processing, and (d) disinhibited behavior. In contrast, reduced power is associated with (a) negative affect; (b) attention to threat, punishment, others’ interests, and those features of the self that are relevant to others’ goals; (c) controlled information processing; and (d) inhibited social behavior. The potential moderators and consequences of these power-related behavioral patterns are discussed. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2007 APA, all rights reserved)
    This article is not on target to what I’m suggesting, but I can’t do a lit search right now. My thesis is this: Person perception is influenced (note I said influenced, not determined) by how the person presents her/himself. If one behaves as if one is competent (drawing from a body of research in personnel psychology) , whether one is nor not, others are more likely to perceive that person as confident. Power depends, in part, on perception of the person. Women have less power as a group than men, no question. However, I wonder if we more often act from a high-power position (here I mean using high-power communication strategies, etc.) and demand power, as it were, we will begin as a group to gain some social power. I think it’s time we act like we have power (addressing instances when we don’t on as many case-by-case situations as we can). We act from a low-power status. What if we changed our strategy?
    Before the howls of outrage fill the net-air, note that I recognized we have less power; note I am NOT “blaming” women for having less power; note that I’m suggesting we consider a change in strategy.

  • dreamy5 // July 20, 2008 at 9:47 pm | Reply

    Yup, Cool Aunt, I don’t think we’re going to come to a meeting of the minds.

    Y’know, it sounds a bit like you’re hoping am raped/betrayed by a man/men. Naw, can’t be. Of course, there is a huge assumption about whether or not I have been.

    Operationalizing means, by the way, being specific simply stated. (Ooops…that’ll be condescending. Damned if I do, damned if I don’t. No way I can win on this one.

    Now, I’ve pissed off you as well as some others. I’m ok with that. Sometimes it’s going to happen. I’ve also noticed that there are few alternative perspectives on Witchy’s blog. Oh, there are the trolls, of course (and I know many of you have designated me one..that’s ok, too). But how many are open to a challenge to their thinking? Groupthink is a dangerous thing (since I’m condescending I won’t bother to explain it…again, damned if I do, damned if I don’t).

  • thebewilderness // July 20, 2008 at 9:52 pm | Reply

    NO!!! Having sons does not make you blind to reality.
    I have two sons, and so if we can use such a specious argument as the having or not having of children to justify our ability to accept the reality that we are faced with on a daily basis, I am living proof that having sons does not impede that ability.

    I am sick to death of this silly ass argument that the having of sons renders the suffering of women at men’s hands insignificant.
    It does not.
    Men are conditioned from birth to consider women a sub class of humans who deserve their abuse and contempt. I do not see how it is possible to have a son and not despair every day as you struggle against the conditioning that they are exposed to in this society.

  • dreamy5 // July 20, 2008 at 10:17 pm | Reply

    I asked a simple question about how many people had sons. I made no arguments either way on that issue. That argument has been made in the past by others, but once again, more is being read into what I said than I said.

  • CoolAunt // July 20, 2008 at 10:37 pm | Reply

    Dreamy the Scientist, bone up on your reading comprehension skills. When I said I’m finished with you, I meant it. I will not be baited into further discussion with you, not to reiterate or to explain a fucking thing to you.

  • dreamy5 // July 20, 2008 at 10:44 pm | Reply

    Um…..by the way…..um…..what was….um……

    Nope, I’ll leave this alone.

  • dreamy5 // July 20, 2008 at 10:51 pm | Reply

    Out of respect for Witchy I’m bowing out now. If anyone wants to go after me further, you’ll have to do it on my blog. I’ve caused Witchy enough grief.

    Or, another alternative might be that we could meet under the bleachers after school………

  • delphyne // July 21, 2008 at 12:19 am | Reply

    “From what I know of psychology, one must act with power to gain power.”

    When did psychologists ever liberate anybody who was oppressed?

    This is politics, dreamy.

  • joankelly6000 // July 21, 2008 at 2:57 am | Reply

    “Joan , you said “if it’s wrong for men to hate women for being women, the opposite is also true.” Here is another point where we part company. Not all men do. Many do, perhaps most, but not all men.”

    We don’t actually part company there. Again, and forgive me if now I am sounding condescending, but I really do feel like you are hearing things that are not being said and that is one reason your responses come across as problematic.

    What I wrote was me saying hate is wrong, no matter who’s doing it. I was basically agreeing with what I believe you are trying to say here.

    A couple of things –

    I haven’t said this yet, but wished I had earlier – I hope to god that you have not been raped, and it bothers me that somehow – I believe I have played a big part in this – it’s like it is now some cred-establishing club that a person does or doesn’t belong to.

    I was really upset when I wrote my first comment to you – but I was not angry that you hadn’t been raped by someone you loved and trusted. I feel like, however, there is something in the intentional harshness of what I said in that first comment that does imply something along the lines of, if this bad thing that happened to me had also happened to you, you would not be saying hurtful things right now, and therefore the only way for you to not be a hurtful person is to experience something terrible yourself. I don’t believe that, and I’m sorry that what I said probably came across that way.

    Also – I get that you probably now feel like you’re being ganged up on…and while I don’t think anybody who disagrees with what you’re saying is then participating in “groupthink” just because lots of others are disagreeing with you, nor do I think anybody should have to not-say what their disagreements are just because many others are disagreeing with you, I do, again, understand why it could feel for *you* like being ganged up on, on your end.

    I’m thinking back to earlier comments on this thread, where you and Witchy used the word “sisters” to talk about each other. My experience of Witchy, personally, is that she’s not a jerk, and so one assumption I am prone to making is that she doesn’t go around befriending a lot of jerky people. So I am inclined to view what’s happening here as you being a decent hearted person who is thinking that something is going on and is attempting to speak out against it, but in fact the thing you are speaking against is not even going on.

  • stormy // July 21, 2008 at 6:28 am | Reply

    I am aware of that study. Sixty percent is a huge number, and it’s probably more. But, there are a few things to consider. First, that means forty percent would not.

    Shame you aren’t a mathematician instead of a scientist.

    60% is a majority. 40% is a minority. Quick, where’s the pie chart!

    So, avoiding males, or being alone with males, when the MAJORITY have rape or sexual coersion on their minds, sounds very sensible to me.

    Your position that we should be cautious, but still yet trust (?!), because of this minority of ‘good men’ is basically the position that most females have taken for hundreds/thousands of years, and yet, the raping has not abated.

    I like my idea better. :P

  • polly styrene // July 21, 2008 at 1:41 pm | Reply

    Well of course the sixty per cent is wrong. Because people lie, even in anonymous surveys and they usually represent themselves in a better way, not a worse one.

    Yeah I’ll try acting as if I have high power next time I’m faced with a dangerous nutter. And see how far it gets me. My bet is that seeing the dangerous nutter in advance and crossing the road to avoid them is a better strategy.

    Have you ever read any Karl Popper Dreamy? All observation is theory laden? ‘Science’ is always changing its mind about stuff. That’s because it’s culturally influenced, not neutral.

    And there ain’t no group think here.

  • Sarah // July 21, 2008 at 9:09 pm | Reply

    “Quick, where’s the pie chart!”

    Invented by Florence Nightingale apparently….

  • CoolAunt // July 22, 2008 at 12:51 am | Reply

    joankelly6000, I do believe this was addressed to me, “Y’know, it sounds a bit like you’re hoping am raped/betrayed by a man/men.” This was in response to my statement that I hope trusting men blindly works out for her, even though I said I meant that without sarcasm or passive aggression. Those who know me know that I’m much more direct and find passive aggression and the like to be the behavior of cowards. I think that many times, people suspect of others what they, themselves, are capable or guilty of.

    For what it’s worth, I’ve been verbally and physically assaulted by men, but not sexually assaulted or raped. I did once fight off an attempted sexual assault by a couple of boys in their early teens when I was about 12 or 13 years old, which didn’t have much lasting impact on me. I don’t live in fear of rape nor do I limit my contact with males, at least not for that reason. (It’s the stupid shit that comes out of most of their mouths that keeps me away from most of them as much as possible.)

    However, I can understand that some women live in fear of being raped, whether they’ve been the victims of rape or not. I can also understand that some women don’t necessarily fear rape, but still choose to avoid any possibility of becoming victims of it by all means, up to and including keeping their contact with males at a minimum. I don’t understand why anyone, penis-bearer or not, would have a problem with that choice.

  • thebewilderness // July 22, 2008 at 1:31 am | Reply

    Dreamy, you do not appear to understand what was so offensive about what you said, so I’m going to explain why I reacted as angrily as I did.
    You said:
    “I agree that the patriarchy enables assault/brutality/murder of women. But shouldn’t we be careful to not lump all men into that category?”

    You seem to think we should. Do you have any reasoning to back that up?

    Next you said:

    “There are several issues here. First, let’s remember self-fulfilling prophecy. No, expecting all men to behave brutally will not cause a good man to become a rapist. But if we have that expectation, men “on the fence” so-to-speak might figure “What the hell?” This is important to WOMEN: If we give even one man an “excuse” (he thinks “I’m supposed to be a rapist, so why not?” ;) that’s another (or ten) women raped who might not have been otherwise.”

    Men teach men that rape is a joke. Men teach men that rape is acceptable if she was “asking for it”. Men teach men that their desire to rape trumps a woman’s right not to be raped.
    I don’t know who you mean by “on the fence” men, unless you mean the ones who think they might get caught and have to experience some consequence for their brutality.
    In that case, a woman operating on the assumption that they might be a rapist would be a deterrent, not an underlying cause.

    Then you capped it with:

    “I am NOT making rape the woman’s responsibility. What I am doing is saying we might want to do everything in our power to protect each other. Expectations of behavior can be one factor in behavior. Perhaps it would be wisest to expect the best but guard against the worst, hmmmm?”

    Yes you did. Saying that you didn’t is dishonest, and contemptuous of the people you are speaking to.
    You go on to say:

    Secondly, stereotyping men is no better than stereotyping women. Yes, many (maybe most) men are/have the capacity to victimize. What about those who don’t?”

    What about them, you ask. Well, what about them? What do they suffer? What do they suffer that is any way comparable to the scope of women’s suffering? If it is in some way detrimental to them to be suspected of being like the majority of men, perhaps they ought to get off their ass and do something about those who are giving them a bad name instead of pretending that women bring it on themselves.

    That’s what pissed me off.

  • Luckynkl // July 22, 2008 at 2:16 am | Reply

    We live in a rape culture. And sexual intercourse is a political institution under patriarchy. Of course all men are rapists. Each and every time they have sexual intercourse. Just because women have been conditioned to submit to it, or to like it, or choose to call it sex, doesn’t negate what it is.

  • stormy // July 22, 2008 at 8:21 pm | Reply

    Nah, the pie chart was invented by me.
    Close, no cigar. :P

  • sparklematrix // July 22, 2008 at 8:49 pm | Reply

    A 78 comment thread re…

    “…the porn using man in a position of trust who pleaded guilty to filming and photographing his sexual assault of a woman. And I’m not entirely sure why”

    And all but seven, are “what about the men”

    Ay yi yi life gets tedious…

    Wanders off…

  • dreamy5 // July 22, 2008 at 9:20 pm | Reply

    Thank you for your explanation thebewilderness. I truly appreciate it. I would be willing to respond on my blog if you’d care to read it, but I’ll not say anything more on Witchy’s other than to express my appreciation that you took the time to address this.

  • Joan Kelly // July 22, 2008 at 10:42 pm | Reply

    Just wanting to say for the recond here –

    I subscribe to a fairly grim analysis of male supremacy myself, and even WITHOUT setting aside my own semi-separatist choices in life, I still do not agree with the statement that all men are rapists.

    Cool Aunt – I took what you said in your comment to not be saracasm or passive aggressiveness, but I said what I said also because of my first comment on here, and an exchange I had with Dreamy at her site about it.

  • Sarah // July 22, 2008 at 11:13 pm | Reply

    Stormy:
    “Nah, the pie chart was invented by me.
    Close, no cigar. :P

    Yep, Florence “Stormy” Nightingale, of course. I don’t smoke, can I have a malteaser instead please?

    Sparkle: Mad innit? Can I wander with you? I think I might have a malteaser I can share?

  • CoolAunt // July 23, 2008 at 2:51 am | Reply

    Thanks, Sparkle, for seeing and pointing out the trees and the forest.

  • polly styrene // July 23, 2008 at 11:58 pm | Reply

    I don’t live in fear of rape in the sense that I go round daily expecting to be raped. However – I alter my behaviour to avoid risk. Not as much as women who won’t go out at night alone. But of course I think don’t go there, don’t get in a minicab (fairly pointless where I live where they gave a bloody sex offended a black cab licence), don’t walk there.

    And I lock my bedroom door on the inside when I go to bed.

    Paranoid?

  • CoolAunt // July 24, 2008 at 12:31 am | Reply

    I don’t think you’re paranoid, polly styrene. I believe that most if not all women are cautious when it comes to the risk of rape.

    I don’t live in fear of rape, at least I don’t think I do. But there are places and situations that I avoid if at all possible (secluded areas after dark, for instance) to reduce the risk of being some rapist’s victim.

  • stormy // July 24, 2008 at 6:58 pm | Reply

    Joan Kelly: I subscribe to a fairly grim analysis of male supremacy myself, and even WITHOUT setting aside my own semi-separatist choices in life, I still do not agree with the statement that all men are rapists.

    Nobody, no-one, said all men were rapists.
    I said that all males have the potential to rape, and myself and others have brought up statistics to show that a majority of males would rape/co-erce if they thought they could get away with it.

    I get quite shitty when someone throws in a statement like that, which infers that someone/all of us, had been saying the cliche: all men are rapists.

    It’s not even a paraphrase, it is a slur.

    The reason that I, and others get really angry about such ‘misunderstandings’ is that radfems are mischaracterised/misquoted all the time. Eventually such ‘misunderstandings’ become (so-called) ‘truths’.

  • joankelly6000 // July 24, 2008 at 8:48 pm | Reply

    Stormy – no one except Luckynkl said it, at 2:16pm on July 22nd, and her comment is what prompted my comment, and hers alone.

    I felt hesitant to leave my comment and hesitant to not-leave it, for exactly the reasons you outline. I fucking HATE that I am not supposed to talk about the fact that tons of men do rape. Or that all men are in some ways encouraged to, and most men can and do “get away with it” when they rape.

    I’m sorry that my comment aggravated the nerve in you (which I also possess) that is tired of things being ascribed to anti-rape people such as ourselves, which we do not actually say or feel.

    Because it is not what most of us say or feel, it bothered that Luckynkl wrote that, and it bothered me to be present in a thread, talking with people who it seems feel quite similarly to me, and then suddenly someone comes in with that statement.

    It is her right to say that if she chooses, and to believe it, but I felt like if I did not respond to her comment – and it was only hers that I was responding to – then her statement could conceivably – and aggravatingly – be ascribed to any of those around her who are talking about the subject of men and rape, including me, which is not okay with me.

    It is different to me, to say “All members of class-man are potentially capable of rape” than to say “Of course all men are rapists. Each and every time they have intercourse.”

    Which latter statements, by the way, get attributed to Dworkin all the time, which drives me the motherfuck insane because *she* never said it either.

    Anyway, hope that clears it up.

  • Polly Styrene // July 24, 2008 at 9:23 pm | Reply

    Well of course Joan, (I agree with you whole heartedly on the last point) no one ever quotes what Andrea Dworkin actually said.

    But what I want to know is why, why, why people are so obsessed with the idea. Why does it bother them so much, this thing that was never even said……

    Because it allows them to very neatly deflect attention away from all the stuff that does happen, that’s why. So the whole thing becomes ‘what about the poor wronged menz, being lied about’ rather than ‘what about the billions of women/children being raped’.

  • joankelly6000 // July 24, 2008 at 10:08 pm | Reply

    Polly – agreed.

    I don’t think it bothers most of the people who misquote Dworkin (they either have not read her, or they are deliberately lying), to think that anyone else believes all men are rapists, or that anyone said it, etc.

    I think it is the deflection that you describe, and also as pertains to Dworkin specifically, it is just an attempt to paint her as crazy and/or hateful and/or at any rate completely wrong-headed.

    Personally I don’t find it crazy or hateful to have a critical analysis of heterosexual sex that finds all of it problematic, but for those who do, trying to paint Dworkin as THE most offensive-thinking person on the planet has been an unfortunately semi-successful tactic.

    Can I ask a non-angry question, because I genuinely am confused – with everything I said since I first started commenting at this thread, why did it read to anybody like I was jumping on the “please don’t defame the poor dudes” bandwagon? And/or, I’m asking because I’d like to understand this as well – how come, when in this whole thread so many of us were talking to dreamy about how alarmist her response came across to many of us, and also how infuriating, *because* she was basically equating talking about rape and self preservation as if it was the exact same thing as attacking all men by calling them all rapists…

    …how come nobody else found luckynkl’s comment irritating and unhelpful? I mean, how is what she wrote not relevant, when in fact it’s what the bunch of us have been talking about for much of this thread?

    Partly I think, well maybe it’s just what Sparklematrix talked about, that we’re all basically spitting in the wind to begin with, by arguing about this in the first place, so maybe in that context luckynkl’s comment should have been ignored? But partly I also feel like, well none of us were really ignoring any thing in this thread, so why would what she said exist in a bubble of not-mattering?

  • Polly Styrene // July 24, 2008 at 10:22 pm | Reply

    Well what I understand Luckynykl to be saying is what Dworkin was saying. That ‘consent’ is a relative concept, not an absolute one as it’s always made out to be. And that in a society where there is a huge power imbalance, ‘consent’ for women is not a simple matter.

    For instance a friend of mine in her twenties says that every single woman she knows has been in a position where they have ‘consented’ to sex they didn’t want to have simply because they were so pressurised to do it. That’s not ‘rape’ in the legal definition, but neither is it something that is freely entered into.

  • delphyne // July 24, 2008 at 10:32 pm | Reply

    “Which latter statements, by the way, get attributed to Dworkin all the time, which drives me the motherfuck insane because *she* never said it either.”

    No she didn’t. What Dworkin did ask though was whether it was possible for women to be free as long as we had to submit to intercourse with men and the invasion of our bodies that that entails. Her whole book “Intercourse” is about how men believe that sex with women is the way they dominate and destroy us. So who exactly is it who thinks men are rapists? Certainly if you hear many men talking about sexual intercourse it’s pretty much what they are saying about themselves.

    I don’t think Lucky’s post was irritating or unhelpful. She’s saying the unsayable (well unsayable for women – men can describe sex in all those violative terms and get away with it). Do you think the taboo on calling all men rapists is because it isn’t true, or because men know it’s far too near the truth and so have to ensure that any woman who says it is silenced and worse?

    I haven’t made up my mind but I’d much rather hear statements like Lucky’s (particularly when you see the response they engender which is always enlightening) than Dreamy’s injuctions about not hurting men’s feelings and calls for psychology to guide our struggle for liberation.

  • Not My Nigel « Rychousmama // July 25, 2008 at 4:54 am | Reply

    [...] http://witchywoo.wordpress.com/2008/07/13/much-is-being-made-of/#comments [...]

  • Polly Styrene // July 25, 2008 at 10:29 am | Reply

    Yup I think everyone who thinks pscyhology can guide the struggle for liberation should read the following book (don’t worry it’s by a man, and therefore obviously correct) “Against Therapy” by Jeffrey Masson. Or they could watch century of the self of course.

  • stormy // July 25, 2008 at 7:13 pm | Reply

    Joan, the mistake you made was in generalisation, rather than just naming and quoting the person’s statement that you had a problem with.

    I too, took Lucky’s comment in the Dworkin vein, which perhaps she could have elaborated on rather than commenting via ‘radfem shorthand’.

    As a former het, I have been nagged, sulked, badgered into sex – as Polly says, not exactly rape, but hardly consent either. Biting Beaver in one of her posts does define this as rape, and within the current patriarchy culture, I would agree.

    And ditto to Delphyne’s last par.

    As radfems, we are constantly in the position of being shot as the messenger. The message is crap, but the actual situation is far worse. It’s time we were less-nice, not to suck up to menz.

    I remember being miffed at the pay gap in the 80s – and I thought, well, give it time to level out. Nearly 30 years later and it is still the damn same. So no, not willing to suck up to menz and ask them nicely. It doesn’t work. It is proven NOT to work.

    So when carey-sharey feminists skip in and say “to get what we want, all we have to do is be nicer to menz and not label them all as mean nasty rapists!”. Won’t work. Hasn’t worked. And I just get bored.

  • Luckynkl // July 25, 2008 at 9:06 pm | Reply

    Well, of course what I said bothers you, Joan, and makes you feel uncomfortable. It’s suppose to. Because it goes against the grain of what the patriarchy has raised and conditioned us to believe and indoctrinated us with. As Kate Millet put in “Sexual Politics” (1969) — “It is interesting that many women do not recognize themselves as discriminated against; no better proof could be found of the totality of their conditioning.”

    Here’s a quote from Germaine Greer which may give you better understanding:

    “Penetration equals domination in the animal world and therefore in the unregenerate human world which is part of it. The penetree, regardless of sex, cannot rule, ok? Not in prison, not in the army, not in business, not in the suburbs. The person on the receiving end is — fucked, finished, unserviceable, degraded. Not actually, you understand, but figuratively, which, language being a metaphor, is what counts. When a male soldier calls a female soldier a split, he identifies her as a fuckee and asserts his dominance over her. Penetration has but little to do with love and even less with esteem.”

    Let’s finish it up with what Dworkin really said:

    “If we’re not willing to look at intercourse as a political institution, that is directly related to the ways in which we are socialized to accept our inferior status, and one of the ways in which we are controlled, we are not ever going to get to the roots of the ways in which male dominance works, in our lives. The fact of the matter is that the basic premise about women is that we are born to be fucked. That is it.

    Now that means a lot of things. For a lot of years it meant that marriage was outright ownership of a woman’s body and intercourse was a right of marriage. That meant that intercourse was, per se, an act of force. Because the power of the state mandated that the woman accept intercourse. She belonged to the man. The cultural remnants of this is that in our society, men experience intercourse as possession of women. The culture talks about intercourse as conquering women. Women surrendering. Women being taken. We are looking at a paradigm for rape. Not at a paradigm for reciprocity, for equality, for mutuality or for freedom. When the premise is that women exist on earth, in order to be sexually available to men for intercourse, it means that our very bodies are seen as having boundaries that have less integrity than male bodies. Men have orifices. Men can be penetrated. The point of homophobia is to direct men towards women. To punish men for not using women. And that’s an acknowledgment of how aggressive and how dangerous men know male sexuality can be for women. When a woman goes into court and she says I’ve been raped, the judge, the defense lawyer, the press, and many, many, many other people say: no, you had intercourse. And she says no I was raped. And they say a little bit of force is fine. You know that, you know it’s still true. It hasn’t changed. When you look at male domination as a social system, what you see is that it is organized to make certain that women are sexually available for men. That is its basic premise. And we have a choice. And the choice is not in the political science books. The universities are not trying to work out this level of choice for us. The question is what comes first, men’s need to get laid or women’s dignity. And I am telling you that you cannot separate the so-called abuses of women from the so-called normal uses of women. The history of women in the world as sexual chattel, makes it impossible to do that.”

  • stormy // July 26, 2008 at 12:35 am | Reply

    Thanks for the quote round up Lucky.

    It is when one accepts such a premise, it is difficult to look at the world, and the way men have structured it, in the same way.

    Take the last part of Dworkin’s quote:
    The history of women in the world as sexual chattel, makes it impossible to do that.

    Now cast your mind over to nearly all the films that have (female) rape in them. Primarily the plots consist of – woman is raped, the wronged man (the woman’s owner) takes revenge out on the dude who raped her. Notable exceptions to the theme are of course Thelma & Louise and The Accused (Jodie Foster). Most of the other films that Hollywood churns out are about dudes blowing up other dudes. And of course, the not-so-hollywood, porn genre.

    Human males are killing off each other, women and children, other species, the planet. Soon there will be nothing left. By the time the Feminist Lite’s get angry enough, it will be too late. Collude if you want, but I’m going out fighting.

  • witchywoo // July 26, 2008 at 12:55 am | Reply

    Human males are killing off each other, women and children, other species, the planet. Soon there will be nothing left. [...] Collude if you want, but I’m going out fighting.

    Radical feminism in a nutshell.

  • joankelly6000 // July 26, 2008 at 1:09 am | Reply

    There is nothing in that quote from Dworkin that I disagree with, at all, or that makes me uncomfortable, except for the discomfort of not liking that this is the way things are, obviously, but that is different than being uncomfortable with the message or messenger.

    Also, this post by Justice Walks makes sense to me:

    http://walkwithjustice.wordpress.com/2008/07/25/all-men-are-rapists/

    Understood, Stormy, about your point that it would have been more effective for me to address Luckynkl directly.

    I still don’t get why after every other comment I left in this thread, confronting Dreamy’s remarks, and after at least three other people, including you, Stormy, saying *to Dreamy* words to the effect of “we’re not saying all men are rapists so your stop-being-harmful-to-men-by-calling-them-all-rapists yelling is misplaced and annoying”, why with all of that, I somehow morphed into the shooting-the-radfem-messenger person here? That is not who I am, nor is it how I have behaved here or anywhere else.

  • thebewilderness // July 26, 2008 at 6:08 am | Reply

    Cosign!

  • Sarah // July 26, 2008 at 1:37 pm | Reply

    Also deep/radical ecology with a feminist angle and that’s where I’m coming from.

    Separating from society and protecting what I can, including my children, is something I can do and I intend to continue doing it and telling others about it and defending my right to choose this way.

    Much love to you Witchy, you do make me think……

  • Mary Sunshine // July 26, 2008 at 5:15 pm | Reply

    Hey, Joan Kelly, thanks for the link to JW’s excellent article!

    As usual, she tells it like it is. Not overstated, not understated, just the clear unvarnished truth.

  • CoolAunt // July 26, 2008 at 6:06 pm | Reply

    Yeah, JoanKelly, thanks for the link. I lost my bookmarks and links a few months ago when my pc blew up and I’m grateful to you for pointing me to JW’s blog again.

  • Anji // July 27, 2008 at 1:52 pm | Reply

    As a w0man with a son, a male partner and a male best friend I have found this thread infinitely interesting.

    What is most interesting is to see other women with sons and male partners defending them to the hilt and refusing to believe they have the capacity for violence against women.

    I love my son. He’s only three, so violence doesn’t enter his mind right now. One day though, he will be a grown man. He will have the capacity to rape, he will have the capacity to be violent and yes, he will even have the capacity to kill women.

    He is being raised in a radical feminist home. I have been doing my best for the last three years to teach him respect, equality and sensitivity. I will continue until I can teach him no more, to attempt to raise him to be as decent and good a man as possible.

    But even after all this, he will still have the potential. I can raise him as best I can, I can teach him everything I can, and I can hope. But I nor any other mother on the planet should assume our sons are angels. They are men, and we are not the only influence on their behaviour. Raising a boy inside a patriarchy is a minefield and I suspect the majority of us step on a mine before our children reach adulthood.

    What was I saying here? No man is ’safe’. No matter how well you know him, how much you love him, how decent and fine and upstanding you believe him to be, no matter if he was birthed from your very own womb – no man is safe until he dies never having raped or beaten a woman, never having behaved in a misogynistic way. Only then will we know he was safe. Those of us with men in our lives would do well to remember that.

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