…woo.
As a radical feminist who’s “out there” I’m often called upon to speak groups of various kinds - small women’s groups, larger professional groups and even bigger conference groups. It’s no big deal. I’m told that I type the way I talk (or vice versa) so what you see is always what you get any way you look at it. I make people laugh, I make them think, I’m challenging and honest. So I’m told. Like most radical feminists, I’m not afraid to lay my wares on the table and have the audience pick what they need at the time from what I offer. I, like most radical feminists, acknowledge the difficulties the patriarchy imposes on our selves, our interactions with others not of our “status” (including our children), our human relationships, our sexuality, our environment, ad nausesm. The list of patriarchially defined heirarchies is fucking endless, isn’t it? Just so’s *someone* will find themselves at the bottom of it. A human person, just like you and me, whlist certain ‘feminists’ seems to be scrabbling to get to the top. The top of what?
The shitheap, that’s what.
I’m sorry, but, as a feminist, I’ve removed myself from the shitheap. It’s not of my design nor making and I don’t belong there. People who’re happy scrabbling about in the shitheap? Fine. They can stay there as long as they can defend it. And they try to. But all their scrabbling about never removes the stench of the shit from them, does it, even if they sometimes, on a whim, decide to define themselves ‘feminist’.
So I tend not to go there these days; to the shitheap. I’m so past shitheap performers trying to argue the *real* with me like their privileged 10% stacks up in any meaningful way against the 90%. Yes, they argue that. Liars. They lie. They negate the lives of those suffering for the choices they make and then have the audacity to promote themselves as the ‘one true voice’ in the well of silence centred in the poverty of those they argue they represent.
And then they get booked to speak at the last minute in discussions about how what they do impacts upon the rest of us (women). And they agree! And then they start posting about “laughing like a super villain” and their “wank worthy fantasy” of debating “some anti-porn sex work types”. To me, the language used is the same language that rapists use (I’m a rape crisis counsellor, I’ve heard it a million times) - it has nothing to do with where women are in this ‘debate’ at all. To be honest, their views are more concommitant with right wing fundamentalists than with feminism…
If I’d been invited to a speaking event where the panel members were changed within the week prior, I’d pull out on principle - whether I wanted to debate them or not. I will not be subject to the vagaries of some random group with a point to ‘prove’ - an agenda to firm, Local Council or House of Commons - I simply wouldn’t do it. You see, I am not a performer - I’m an activist. And I’m a feminist activist, to boot. I’m not looking to ’score points’ for us in the shitheap. As a radical feminist, I’m looking to get us all out of the shitheap.
Now that’s professional.
22 responses so far ↓
Arantxa // April 19, 2008 at 10:38 am
Debates are already problematic in and of themselves but to debate someone who lies is totally pointless - at least for the person who, like you say, is ‘looking to get us all out of the shitheap’.
Laurelin // April 19, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Ten million tonnes of agreement here, Witchy.
Sis // April 19, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Sorry you have had your much needed energies and focus subverted to deal with what is pointless and frankly pathological.
delphyne // April 19, 2008 at 3:13 pm
Yup, changing the line-up of a discussion panel at the last minute without bothering to inform the other participants is both unethical and incompetent. Some people however think it’s justifiable in the pursuit of their agenda, at least that’s what they tell themselves. They’re wrong.
Mary Sunshine // April 19, 2008 at 3:32 pm
It’s exhausting. No energy for debate here. Commonality has to be the first point of departure.
Brilliant post, Witchy!
Thanks for that.
Sarah (Ethically Speaking) // April 19, 2008 at 4:22 pm
“I’m looking to get us all out of the shitheap.”
**applause, much applause**
sparklematrix // April 19, 2008 at 5:03 pm
“I’m so past shitheap […]
Witchy I think you have just invented a new concept “post-shitism” a la “postmodernism” This may be abbreviated to po-sh
Sarah (Ethically Speaking) // April 19, 2008 at 11:54 pm
Like it Sparkle! I can’t remember the last acronym I adopted - can I be PoSh too please?
Maggie Hays // April 20, 2008 at 12:05 am
Excellent post, Witchy-Woo, this is terrific!
I’m totally in agreement with you here. I loved your point here:
” So I tend not to go there these days; to the shitheap. I’m so past shitheap performers trying to argue the *real* with me like their privileged 10% stacks up in any meaningful way against the 90%. Yes, they argue that. Liars. They lie. They negate the lives of those suffering for the choices they make and then have the audacity to promote themselves as the ‘one true voice’ in the well of silence centred in the poverty of those they argue they represent.”
So, so true, the few privileged ones are acting as if the world revolved around them. They cannot get past their “me, me, me, me” arguments and “what about me?” and so forth. What a narcissism that is on their part! And they do lie. They pretend to care, they pretend to be the ones who represent and defend the vast majority of prostituted women in order to promote their “sex work” agenda. There are some major studies that proved that legalization of prostitution has failed but they refuse to hear that fact. They carry on stupidly talking their “choice” rhetoric and have the cruelty of denying major research studies (= http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/c-prostitution-research.html
https://www.againstpornography.org/womeninsexindustry.html
Most prostituted women are silenced by abusive johns and pimps and do not get the chance to speak as much as the few privileged women do.
“laughing like a super villain”? “wank worthy fantasy”? I agree that these comments were totally inappropriate. This makes me think: this kind of language is awfully similar to the sort of language a porn-using abuvive ex-boyfriend of mine was often using when talking to me.
And this is absolutely unethical and dishonest to change the participants on one side of the panel only a few days before the event without even letting the opposing panelists know about the change. Would a rad fem be supposed to turn up there and then find out? How shady that is!
“If I’d been invited to a speaking event where the panel members were changed within the week prior, I’d pull out on principle - whether I wanted to debate them or not. ”
Damn right, Witchy-Woo!
sparklematrix // April 20, 2008 at 9:47 pm
“Like it Sparkle! I can’t remember the last acronym I adopted - can I be PoSh too please?”
Of course - I think we all need be
Laurelin // April 20, 2008 at 10:16 pm
[/i]“wank worthy fantasy”? I agree that these comments were totally inappropriate. This makes me think: this kind of language is awfully similar to the sort of language a porn-using abuvive ex-boyfriend of mine was often using when talking to me. [/i]
It’s interesting to note how many of the male ’sex pozzes’ use this sort of language to ‘argue’ against radical feminist arguments against pornstitution. They speak of ‘fisking’ us, accuse us of ‘wanking’ over details etc (Witchy has certainly had this aggressive language used against her recently by cowardly fuckwits).- all of it is major projection, of course. They cannot see the world in any other way, they use sexualised language to try and win their pathetic little game. It speaks volumes about them, it really does, and it only proves our point about pornification. The more the shout to drown us out, the more they tell us just who they are.
Laurelin // April 20, 2008 at 10:17 pm
I think ‘fisking’ is a sexualised word- do tell me if I’m wrong. (Don’t have a dictionary to hand)
witchywoo // April 20, 2008 at 10:31 pm
This re ‘fisking’ from Wikki:
A point-by-point refutation of a blog entry or (especially) news story. A really stylish fisking is witty, logical, sarcastic and ruthlessly factual; flaming or handwaving is considered poor form. Named after Robert Fisk, a British journalist who was a frequent (and deserving) early target of such treatment.[2]
More broadly, the British newspaper The Observer defined fisking as “savaging an argument and scattering the tattered remnants to the four corners of the internet.”[3] The technique also has its critics. Andrew Orlowski in The Register commented that “Many of today’s debaters prefer ‘Fisking’—line-by-line rebuttals where facts are dropped like radar chaff—to rational debate or building a coherent argument.”[4]
I think the last sentence says it all…
Sarah (Ethically Speaking) // April 20, 2008 at 10:54 pm
The internet has corners?
Laurelin // April 21, 2008 at 1:28 am
*Random lengthy thoughts ahead; I suggest putting the kettle on*
Thanks for that Witchy, I was about ten seconds away from looking it up in my English-German dictionary to see if I knew the word in its Germanic form. (Having to try and read 19th century texts in German- ugh). This doctorate better be worth it! Note to self: buy a flippin’ English- English dictionary.
So scratch that, anyway. I stand corrected. But in the main I think my point stands: the pornsick men use sexualised language to ‘argue’ against radical feminist points of view. As they’re mostly concerned with their own erections, it stands to reason that they use this kind of speech. It doesn’t stop feminists wiping the floor with them though!
On a personal level, what makes me simultaneously laugh and fume is that these morons honestly think they’re smarter than me., and that they’ll say things to me they’d never dare say in person. But men often assume they are smarter than women, don’t they? I mean, they’re socialised to believe it from a young age. It’s always amusing and infuriating to see them truly believe that a few words of abuse and porn-speak will trounce well thought out, women-centred discussions and papers. (Check out male responses to Julie Bindel’s articles on the Guardian online for examples- if you can stomach it). I had an experience of this today, reading a 1970s article on 19th century feminist action against tight-lacing and corsetry, and the subsequent response from a male writer who was quite obviously a fetishist contradicting everything she said with unsupported statements and axioms. While there were things he said that were valid, they came nowhere close to disproving what she wrote, and his lack of evidence and clear agenda were obvious.
Postmodernist men are more examples- they use the most complicated and superficially intellectual language they can to put us off- but then when you actually come down to it, what they’re saying is either a) something feminists said twenty years ago, or b) sweet fuck-all. It’s all about the surface.
Hmm, this comment ended up in a different place to where it started…
My main point is this: when you see men using abusive and degrading language towards women, whether the men claim to be feminists or not, you see misogyny, and fear. Never mind their claims to be standing up for the good of the universe. If they are being abusive to women, trying to belittle us, they are misogynists who lack the intelligence and courage to question male dominance.
Laurelin // April 21, 2008 at 1:31 am
Ah, I now understand why I got confused:
1) I thought ‘fisking’ applied to the pat-down one gets given at airports which although not sexual, has been construed as such in porny jokes
2) one sex-pos blog used to have a ghastly picture of a woman in bondage gear holding a whip under which it said ‘fisk the b*tch’. Hence, confusion.
I’ve also noticed just how often I use the word ‘fuck’… make what you will of that!
x
simply wondered // April 21, 2008 at 1:50 pm
well laurelin, I’VE noticed how often you cut through the wood to point out a particularly important tree (crap metaphor…
like this, which really made me think:
‘when you see men using abusive and degrading language towards women, whether the men claim to be feminists or not, you see misogyny, and fear’
so central to the whole thing i (at least) forget it. thanks!
ps i think saying ‘fuck’ is good. helps me pour out a little bit of annoyance with stupid people each time i do it.
simply wondered // April 21, 2008 at 1:51 pm
who put the bloody smiley in my post??? it was a bracket.
i don’t do smileys!!!!!!!!!
Laurelin // April 21, 2008 at 5:39 pm
Thanks sw!
(if you ask the Witchy nicely she may deal with your smiley problem for you…
Laurelin // April 21, 2008 at 5:40 pm
damnit, that last smiley was not meant to be a smiley! The first one was….
simply wondered // April 22, 2008 at 12:10 pm
you’re just taunting me with the emoticons now!!!!
wait a mo - your last smiley was a close round bracket as well wasn’t it - so was mine!
i blame the fuxking tories.
) that was typed as a barcketso let’s see…
simply wondered // April 22, 2008 at 12:11 pm
no - it won’t do it when you are watching - damn!
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