…..there’s some serious dissing of the Witchy going down out there.
I point out how the extremist individual’s idea of what helps them survive isn’t beneficial to women as a group and I’m immediately the “bad woman” – the surrenderer, the defeatist, the lay-down-and-die-er. Well, to quote a phrase, fuck that noise.
All I know is that women as a group want to get on with their lives free from the forces that continually grind them down. The forces that grind them down are enabled by patriarchal capitalism. That’s what I fight as an individual woman. Patriarchal capitalism.
So fuck you if you think I’m more ‘academic’ than you are. And you can fuck right off if you think the work that I do for ordinary women means jack-shit in the great scheme of women’s liberation. You can’t use the master’s tools to destroy the master’s house, you know. Playing the game isn’t subversive and it pisses me right off that some of the young women who aspire to being feminists think that they can beat the system. Do you not think we already tried that?
Some young women are upfront and honest and admit to liking what they do. I wonder, sometimes, just how much they’re aware of how what they do feeds the poison of sexism in our culture…or just how much they care. Is it ok to feed sexism in one’s professional life and fight it in one’s personal life? I don’t know. I’d have a problem with that, personally, because, whether we like it or not, if we play the game we don’t make the rules – no matter how ’subversive’ we like to think we are.
No. True subversion entails disruption that results in questioning of the norm.
I’m sorry if I’ve offended anyone with the honesty of my opinion. Argue it with me, by all means – I’m always open to question and debate. I am honest, after all. But being one woman yelling “yeehaw! this is me and I love it! (plus I do some feminist-type shit on the side)” doesn’t equate in any way to improving the lives of the many – does it? Cos if it does we’d all be strippers/porn performers, right? We’d all be feeding our own narcissism (given the social structure we all survive in) and yelling “hell yeah! The menz love me!”
You are so far removed from ‘the ordinary woman’ that, yes, you may well be a trail-blazer for all of us. But please don’t diss the fighters for the ordinary woman in your struggle to be recognised…in your feminism. And don’t diss our feminism in your extraordinariness. Just because you’re ok doesn’t mean the rest of Class Woman can get there. You’re all for people hearing you – and we do – how about you just stop and listen for a minute?
55 responses so far ↓
Sarah (Ethically Speaking) // March 25, 2007 at 10:49 pm |
“I’m sorry if I’ve offended anyone with the honesty of my opinion.”
Not offended here. You make me stop and think, you rattle my cage, but you haven’t managed to offend me with your opinion.
witchywoo // March 25, 2007 at 11:06 pm |
Ah Sarah… and how much does appreciation by the menz count with you? Pays your bills? No. Keeps you in school? No. Gives you a life? No.
So I won’t offend you hon. My opinion is where you are. Doing it on your own. There are some amongst us who believe that doing it for the menz (whilst getting their own rocks off at the same time, of course) equates to you fighting to feed your kids. I can’t see it, personally but, hey, what do I know.
Pippa // March 25, 2007 at 11:44 pm |
Who disseth the Witch?!! I shall take umbrage at the idea! If it’s who I thinks it is, don’t fret about it. Just keep on doing what you do, I love you and you make me think about my feminism each and every post. Keep the faith.
Sarah (Ethically Speaking) // March 25, 2007 at 11:47 pm |
Pippa,
Me too! I taketh major umbrage, I shall slappem on the Witch’s behalf.
Pony // March 26, 2007 at 2:15 am |
After spending the whole day cooking and baking, Pony trots into the computer room, rests her tiny well manicured hooves under her desk in anticipation of a serene evening munching brownies and reading Witchy Woo, that class act Brit fem in whose mouth butter wouldn’t melt…
and look what Pony finds!
“But being one woman yelling “yeehaw! this is me and I love it! (plus I do some feminist-type shit on the side)…”
ROFLMAO
sparklematrix // March 26, 2007 at 2:52 am |
Witchy said: “If we play the game, we don’t make the rules”
Taken out of context but in this situation it holds on its own and I said ‘this’ situation.
Games do not work. It is only by stepping out of the exchange that you can see the dynamics.
The phrase “I’ll play/beat them at their own game—-doesn’t happen, because that is all it is —a game.
Games do not create change – in fact, they maintain the status quo .
So yes as witchy said:
” True subversion entails disruption that results in questioning of the norm”
The “norm” being the Game.
Laurelin // March 26, 2007 at 3:27 am |
Witchy- I love you.
I’m so angry right now, and I’m so sick of these bullshit tactics used. If we point something out, blame us for it exisiting. They use the stupid code of ‘victimisation’- the method of silencing victimised people by suggesting that there is something morally wrong about being a ‘victim’. ‘Victim’ means something shit happened to you that’s not your fault. Admiting that women are victimised by patriarchy is not keeping women down, ffs. It is not a comment on the personality of women, it is a statement of cultural practice. The patriarchy’s victimisation is keeping women down. I mean it’s not rocket science, is it?
This whole stuff about the Twisty thread- people have been spitting feathers just because her commentators don’t like femininity. Why is that so fucking threatening to them? It’s not patronising to point out that high heels damage, that make up is full of goddess-knows-what chemicals, that forcing oneself into a mould is painful. When Twisty’s commentators agree with her, they are accused of blindly towing the line. Maybe (shock! horror!) they have thought about it a lot, and agree…
Anyone dissing the Witchy automatically incurs my wrath, it has to be said. As someone who knows and loves her, I want to say that Witchy’s dedication to women and to feminism is extraordinary. She’s an inspiration to me. I’m always amazed at how Witchy fights, how she does it with patience and integrity. The best her detractors can come up with is ‘fuck you’ and ‘kiss my arse’. Witchy works so fucking hard for women and for feminism, and she deserves so much better than this crap. None of us are here to submit to your vanities. I don’t expect anyone to do so for mine at any rate (and I have plenty of them!).
And just to remind people: we will all still be writing about femininity, what we believe it is, what its function is, how it works in practice. Personally, if I was worried about pissing people off, I wouldn’t blog. I don’t like pissing people off, I don’t even like the combatative tone and anger of my typing here, but sometimes there is no alternative.
Well, I’ll sit back and wait for the backlash. In the words of the Dixie Chicks: ‘I’m not ready to play nice’. Or sommat like that.
Pony // March 26, 2007 at 4:27 am |
Inspired by this thread, I’d like to suggest an addition for Christi:
{insert pre-scream)
“She’s such a victim. That would never happen to me because I (took karate), (have chains on my fuck me boots), (looked him right in the eye), (am tall and work out), (was in the military), (carry a pointy umbrella).
Pony // March 26, 2007 at 4:28 am |
Turn up the volume:
http://www.christinielsen.com/blog/about2getskinny/
octogalore // March 26, 2007 at 4:48 am |
Witchy — what kind of “playing the game” and “beating the system” are you referring to here? How have we already tried it? Some context would be helpful. It sounds like you may be referring to women who are in porn or stripping?
Also, you said “True subversion entails disruption that results in questioning of the norm.” Absolutely agree. What examples would you provide on this?
RenegadeEvolution // March 26, 2007 at 1:54 pm |
::slides WW the metophorical gin and tonic:::
Witchy, I do respect and like you. I’ve had a shit time here as of late and you said something referencing me directly that really pissed me off and I blew up because of it and other reasons. I should have brought it to you directly and I did not and I do appologize for that. I don’t think you’re defeatist in the least. I think you are concerned and generally pretty witty and I would most certainly say you do a lot for women. A lot. And that is good.
But just like you get tired and feel like you are getting kicked a whole lot, so do I. I do things and try to do things in my own way, and I feel so often like I get utterly dismissed for that, and it burns. I try to do for women and I try to do feminist things but I can’t, and I won’t, change WHO I am to fit those ideals perfectly. And every time I am told what I do matters not a wit because of who I am, it burns. I am who I am, I do what I do, and as much as it does annoy the shit out of me, I am human just like everyone else and subject to the same messy emotions as all other humans. Reading that statement over there, said by you, burned worse than it would have out of someone else because I do respect and like you…if that makes sense at all. But just as you don’t like being discounted and told what you do doesn’t matter, I don’t like it either. No, not at all.
And being subversive and trying to do things my way is all I’ve got. No, it might not change the world but it might help some people, and that’s all I can do right now and it has to be good enough for the time being, and if people think what I do is easy they would be wrong. It’s not. Not at all.
But I shouldn’t have blown up on you like that, because, as my mother is wont to say, you’re a good egg, and disagree with you about a ton of shite or not, I think you ‘do good for’ and care about women, the collective….
…and often I am just an asshole.
apostate // March 26, 2007 at 5:45 pm |
Witchy, I see your side of it, I do. My perspectives on this stuff are in flux right now and I’m trying not to contradict myself all over the place. This Internet feminism is different from real-world feminism. I think I may just go to law school after all and put my money where my mouth is – do what you’re doing.
I think we all disagree less than we think we do. Everyone does what they do, and the business of life keeps on moving along. We are on the same side, most of the time. Uniformity is impossible.
If I felt I was truly trapped in a patriarchal society – and I’ve been there, having grown up in Saudi Arabia – I would feel as you do. I don’t feel oppressed by men any longer, in liberal California, so I speak up. In the grander scheme of things, yes, things suck – everywhere. Not just for women either.
But in the here and now, those who take the choice to flash their tits and stay safe, make good money, etc., should have it. Because the grander scheme of things will always suck. We may as well enjoy ourselves in what ways we can. It’s important to have certain absolute freedoms, free even of ideology, on an individual level.
I’m a nihilist, and I’m a pessimist – I don’t think we can fix up what is fundamentally fucked up. Dworkin was right – but what joy is there in that vision? It’s much more fun to be Paglia.
Which is not to say we give up entirely. But focusing our efforts on legislation makes more sense than trying to change people’s entrenched attitudes. And if anything, we ought to be teaching women why Christianity is not on their side and make them stop shooting themselves in the foot by electing Christian leaders. This doesn’t apply to England, sorry. I can’t get out of the habit of American-centrism.
Anyway – buck up. We’re on the same side. Don’t let any of this get you down.
Pony // March 26, 2007 at 6:28 pm |
Have you considered a career in marketing?
dreamy5 // March 27, 2007 at 1:33 am |
Witchy…I’m at a disadvantage. I don’t know the context so I don’t know how to evaluate your remarks. I do know you’re passionate and wholly committed to feminism. I am too. But I’m somewhat quieter in my fight. I sometimes use different tactics (and you know what they are).
Since I don’t know the context, I don’t know quite what to ask. But….hon, is the quieter type of fighting also valued? I suspect you do value it, but I’m not sure. Sometimes I work within the system, somewhat like Ghandi….quiet, peaceful, but still true to my beliefs.
Witchy….I can’t live the passion you do. I admire it, but I can’t do it. Thoughts, please? And you know you can be honest with me, you know I roll with punches.
Gayle // March 27, 2007 at 2:52 am |
Great post, WW!
Apostate, I’m curious about this:
“And if anything, we ought to be teaching women why Christianity is not on their side and make them stop shooting themselves in the foot by electing Christian leaders.”
I just went to your blog to find you asserting we should respect women enough to let them make their own choices. The above looks like a contradiction to me.
Why aren’t Christian women allowed their own choices? Aren’t they smart enough to decide what’s right for them?
apostate // March 27, 2007 at 3:25 am |
Gayle,
You’re right – it’s a sort of contradiction. Here’s the thing: I want to treat everyone like an adult and respect their choices, and importantly, hold them fully responsible for them. Then Euny (a commenter) comes up and quite rightly points out that a lot of choices are made under social pressure, a lot of it not in women’s interests. I would still say women, as free adults, are on their own.
On the other hand, there’s something to be said for education.
Women are responsible for their actions inasmuch as they should know better than to have unprotected sex. They should know better than to elect anti-abortion representatives. But they don’t always know better. At this point, their choices are not ENTIRELY personal (as they affect society at large), and so public education becomes relevant.
I support educating people to make better choices. And then hold them responsible for their choices. I don’t think our society is entirely failing in educating people, which is why I don’t think women (or anyone) ought to be absolved of responsibility. Religion is one pernicious area of influence which is positively ANTI-educational. But even though we’re not entirely failing in education, we can do much better.
Meanwhile, yes, I’ll continue to hold people responsible – that never changes. We always have choices and we always have to take responsibility, no matter what.
I hope that made sense.
Gayle // March 27, 2007 at 4:32 am |
It makes sense, but you’re still not really answering the question. It regarded your commentary on respecting women’s choices, whether or not we agree.
You now say education is an answer as if Christian women suffer from a lack of knowledge and we (society) are obligated to educate them. Who said they aren’t educated? I know many educated women who have chosen to lead Christian lifestyles, some positively oppressive and pernicious, in my opinion, but my opinion isn’t the point.
When you say you support educating women to make better choices, I think you’re really saying the knowledge they have is lacking, it’s missing something, or it’s wrong in some way and they don’t even know it. Therefore their choices could be faulty, perhaps even detrimental to themselves and society at large, and they need to be educated in a new way to understand why.
It sounds like your advocating “conscious raising” for Christian women. I’m fine with that, personally. But it doesn’t jive with the assertion you made on your blog. If you told a Christian woman she really just needs more (or a different) education, I’ll assume she’d take that as an insult, at least initially. Isn’t that what you’re trying to avoid?
Or perhaps I misread you? Maybe you think she would benefit from this new knowledge once she understands it better? If so, why can’t this apply to other women, in regards to other institutions and cultural norms, too?
John Goff // March 27, 2007 at 8:22 am |
Witchy Woo, I’m not sure if it is okay for me to comment here (and if it isn’t, please delete this and email me), but I would like to ask a question of Pony.
Have you considered a career in marketing?
Just to clarify something, Pony, do you direct this at RenEv? I know you and I have had arguments in the past, and I do not wish to inflame anything.
RenegadeEvolution // March 27, 2007 at 1:41 pm |
I think that one was for the Apostate, actually. Could be wrong though.
Pony // March 27, 2007 at 2:37 pm |
We’ve had no arguments John Goff. You’ve had a problem with me not listening to you. Vide supra.
Pony // March 27, 2007 at 2:48 pm |
Witchy you invited me here but I won’t be staying. Thanks.
apostate // March 27, 2007 at 5:49 pm |
Gayle – I think you’re splitting hairs. It’s not very complicated.
On the one hand, I personally will never think to tell a Christian woman (or man) that they need to be educated. or educated further. On the other hand, suppose a number of Christian women vote for Christianist leaders (or a number of Muslim women vote for leaders who promise to put Islam in the constitution), they, as a result of their votes, lose some rights, such as (say) the right to abortion.
I have said on my blog elsewhere that I don’t, personally, care that women in Middle America are losing the right to abortion, because they can vote and they have made a choice. If the same thing happened in California (where I live), I will be out on the streets protesting. I’m big on local legislation, absolute personal responsibility, political involvement, etc.
So I personally respect everyone’s right to make their choices and then I also hold them responsible for their choices. Collectively and individually. In my opinion, you can’t ‘respect’ without ‘holding responsible.’
At the same time, if better education – in schools, not ‘just generally’ educating someone – is something we can provide, we should be providing it.
For instance, evolution should be part of our curricula, period, end of story. Better sex education should be available in schools. Etc.
Are the two viewpoints contradictory? I don’t think so. Hope this explains it.
And Pony, if that was meant for me, no, I haven’t considered a career in marketing. I can bullshit with the best of them, but I need to convince myself I have a moral reason for doing so, which is why I like the law.
Liz // March 27, 2007 at 6:29 pm |
Hi Witchy.
I think what you do is fantastic, you do so much for women and I think every little thing anyone does for women does help the grand scheme of things.
I’m not entirely sure where this is coming from but I do want you to know that many of us respect and are inspired by y0u and what you say on your blog.
When I’m feeling particularly low, I just have to read your blog (and certain others) and it makes me feel like I’m not alone, I’m not paranoid and these things are happening and I’m not being nit-picky for pointing them out.
As for ‘So fuck you if you think I’m more ‘academic’ than you are’ – I have to 100 per cent agree.
Because okay, some of us are more educated than others, but why is this a bad thing?? Does it mean that our education hasn’t taught us anything?
For me, Feminism began with a module I was taught at Uni. I’ve learnt a lot since then, from reading all these blogs and listening to people and thinking and noticing things I didn’t notice before.
Sometimes being “academic” is a positive thing, which is not to say that women who aren’t “academic” don’t have relevant things to say…in fact is this “academic” just another way to put dissent in the ranks??:-S What the hell does it mean anyway?
womensspace // March 27, 2007 at 7:18 pm |
Huh. There’s one thing that is positive about those threads. We find out who is who if we weren’t positive before, and that has some value.
I’m sorry, Witchie Woo. You have nothing to apologize for, not a thing. And neither do I. Neither does ginmar. Neither does Twisty.
Heart
dreamy5 // March 27, 2007 at 9:21 pm |
Being one of those academic types…I keeping fairly quiet. But…I love hearing that academic expressions are also appreciated.
sarmorrow // March 27, 2007 at 9:24 pm |
Interestingly this surfaced on BBC News today:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6499095.stm
Dunno if it’ll link for you. No idea how this code stuff works.
Pony // March 27, 2007 at 10:13 pm |
Something similarly frightening happened recently at Women’s Space/The Margins, with open or tacit approval by a couple other blogs.
What will be the solution? I think more blocking of bloggers who do not post in good faith, who make violent threats, or who launch or take part in a campaign of emotional harrassement.
I refuse to blog with those people when they show up elsewhere. I and others, will leave those blogs.
On Wikipedia now there is a lot of controvery over anonymous editing, anonymous adminship. I don’t think many, especially women, as this story sarmorrow has posted shows, would be wise to post with names. But we can at least foster a civil and respectful personality behind our anonymous poster names. Many of us are never going to agree on some issues, and some of us are never going to blog with people just to “make nice”. But we can refrain. And we can acknowledge the culture of violence (rape culture) that women endure, and how our actions can refuse that, or condone that.
Gayle // March 28, 2007 at 1:13 am |
Apostate,
I asked you to answer a question. A question you really haven’t bothered to honestly engage, BTW. Since when does asking a question equal “splitting hairs”?
You clearly want people to be enlightened about issues you deem important, yet you discourage others from feeling the same way (Unless– and I ascertain this from your posts above– their priorities are the same as yours). So why don’t you just admit it?
Gayle // March 28, 2007 at 1:31 am |
Speaking of threatening bloggers:
Marisacat has received some really vile rape spam this week as a result of a Interblog flame war. Not the generic stuff either (as if that’s not bad enough), it’s directed at her specifically and it’s presented as if written by her.
http://marisacat.wordpress.com/2007/03/26/she-got-what-was-coming-to-her-only-been-said-forever/
The good news is she has the IP addresses and she appears to have volunteers tracking them down. The sad news is that the spam is apparently coming from “fellow progressive” bloggers who obviously want to drive her off the edges of the internet.
PS: sorry about the long link- hope it works. PSS: this link could be triggering.
apostate // March 28, 2007 at 6:32 am |
Gayle – I really don’t know why you think I haven’t answered your questions. I think I have. Sorry they don’t meet with your approval.
Everyone is absolutely free to do whatever – advocate any point of view they want. Hell, when Witchy said she was going to pick porn as her battle, I cheered her on, even though I don’t personally want to ban porn.
But since it would please you so much to have me admit that I’m contradicting myself, fine. I’m contradicting myself. Only the unimaginative are always consistent. Happy now?
veravenom // March 30, 2007 at 2:41 pm |
“Playing the game isn’t subversive ”
Thank you. There is nothing subversive about doing exactly as you’re told.
octogalore // March 30, 2007 at 6:19 pm |
“Playing the game isn’t subversive … There is nothing subversive about doing exactly as you’re told.”
Women are typically encouraged NOT to play the game, referred to above as “using the master’s tool” and “doing what you want.” Nope, we’re usually asked to use “girl” tools like sugar spoons and knitting needles. And we’re usually told that we cannot do what we want — sexually, career-wise — we must instead do what will make men like us.
So I think being subversive and playing the game the guys get to play is exactly the opposite of doing what we are told.
witchywoo // March 30, 2007 at 10:09 pm |
Interesting take, octogalore.
“Women are typically encouraged NOT to play the game…..we must instead do what will make men like us”
So we’re encouraged not to rock the sexist boat, yes?
“So I think being subversive and playing the game the guys get to play is exactly the opposite of doing what we are told.”
Is it? Women are as capable of misogyny as men are. The rules of sexism are learned and applied by both girls and boys, women and men. Sexism is one of the masters tools and I don’t think that feeding it – personally, professionally, anyhow – is subversive in any way. It disrupts nothing. It simply maintains the status quo.
As a feminist, I have no desire to play the game the guys get to play. As a radical feminist, I work to disrupt the status quo.
simplywondered // March 30, 2007 at 10:59 pm |
as i miss most of the blogwar shit that divides feminists, i can’t comment on any of what this is about. my reading of what witchy writes, suggests she deploys both intelligence and humanity in what she writes and feels. i don’t know what these things are that people say she does in the real world (i know a little of what she has told me personally, but it’s not as if she shouts about how marvellous her actions are). all i have seen of her is a kind and honest woman who treats people with respect even when she disagrees with them and stands by what she says.
and she seems to get pissed off from time to time.
not sure how relevant it is in a forum where, by its nature, most readers will be well aware of all that and more, but i think it bears repeating.
witchywoo // March 30, 2007 at 11:11 pm |
Well, thank you SW. And thank you everyone else who has commented and/or emailed me with similar sentiments.
A flame is a flame and this one was seriously misdirected.
exangelena // March 31, 2007 at 2:11 am |
Long-time lurker leaving a note of support: I don’t know if the discussion is over or what, but I wanted to say that I agree 100% with this post and I’m sorry that all this crap happened.
I’m a nonwhite, lower middle class radical feminist (from the US) and I have had white sex-positive feminists and liberals call me racist (and/or elitist) because I am a radical feminist.
I hate it that whenever radical feminists provoke or (horrors!) offend anyone, that there’s a huge backlash and everyone treats us like we run the world and that we’re the oppressors, when in reality, we are vastly outgunned by the multibillion dollar sex industries.
sarmorrow // March 31, 2007 at 12:14 pm |
WW, I’m sorry I haven’t been as vocal as I might have been in my support. I’m behind you 100% in your fights and support each of your battles. Just because people choose to fight different battles doesn’t mean we’re not fighting the same war right? And why diss your “allies”? I don’t get it.
But what I do get, is that (for me) WW you are speaking to me with most of your posts here. You confront more than me, you express things better than me. I’m quieter and less eloquent, but I stand at your shoulder and offer my support where and how I can. You make me think, You make me see – sometimes surprisingly, sometimes you make me angry. But you have never offended me. (yet, there’s always the chance huh?)
Teach me some more?
octogalore // March 31, 2007 at 9:23 pm |
Witchy said: “So we’re encouraged not to rock the sexist boat, yes?”
No. My point was that women making our own choices, whether professionally or personally, is what we should be going for here. Many times, this WILL rock the sexist boat. Like if our choices put us in positions where we can tell men what to do. Sometimes, our choices, if it’s “yeehaw! this is me and I love it!” kind of stuff, appear to be “feeding sexism.” But how is this the case? If a porn star or stripper who has the financial wherewithal drops out for the cause, does this help women in any way? As I’ve argued elsewhere, trying to cut off supply won’t affect demand, and where there is demand, there will always be supply.
I believe the master’s house is sturdy enough so that ONLY the master’s tools can afford women the platform needed to destroy, or rebuild it.
How would you propose that we achieve change without being in positions of power in the here and now? I’m open to learning.
simplywondered // March 31, 2007 at 10:13 pm |
ah entryism or not… the great debate. it’s like labour in the 80s.
witchywoo // April 1, 2007 at 5:15 am |
It so is SW – and look where we are now! Gods and fuck…
octogalore – the master’s house is only as strong as those who underpin it. The master’s tools only work to reinforce the foundations of the master’s house – they do not, in any shape or form, afford anyone the capability to knock it down.
Achieve change without being in positions of power? We can’t. Hence the fight to topple the master’s house. Hence feminism. Feminism might be ‘fun’ for some, ‘fashionable’ for others but the reality is that it’s a political struggle for human survival as much as the civil rights movement and the human rights movement are.
It’s not about individual choice. It’s not about saying “Feminism is about women. I’m a woman. I’ve chosen this therefore my choice is a feminist choice.” It’s about recognising how the choices you make as a woman impact on the lives of women as a group.
We achieve change by not pandering to the structures of patriarchal capitalism, by not doing as we’re told and by not being so fucking selfish that we don’t recognise the harm caused to other women by what we do when we underpin the master’s house.
In short, we achieve change by acting for change.
simplywondered // April 1, 2007 at 7:57 pm |
looking about for antonia blair to come and rescue us…
tumbleweed…
octogalore // April 1, 2007 at 9:57 pm |
Witchy said “Achieve change without being in positions of power? We can’t. Hence the fight to topple the master’s house. Hence feminism.”
What is the game plan by which feminism would topple the master’s house?
“We achieve change by not pandering to the structures of patriarchal capitalism, by not doing as we’re told and by not being so fucking selfish that we don’t recognise the harm caused to other women by what we do when we underpin the master’s house.”
Have you ever been inside a corporate institution as it progressed from being 20% to 60% women?
Didn’t think so. I have. So pardon me if I resent the “fucking selfish” and also the fairly ignorant assertion that women cannot change the nature of institutions.
Also, when a woman’s aging relatives are in need of medical attention, and she’s the only family member who’s gotten the capitalism-supported funds to support this, then who pray tell would the radical feminist troops send in to solve this problem? If we turn up our noses at gaining power and/or material resources, even through master’s tools, then we’re also limiting our ability to adequately protect those dear to us. And increasing our reliance on the masters. I’d rather take their tools away, myself.
Laurelin // April 1, 2007 at 10:39 pm |
This strikes me as a very creative interpretation of Witchy’s text. Where did she say ‘don’t have a job’ or ‘don’t use healthcare’?
witchywoo // April 1, 2007 at 11:10 pm |
“What is the game plan by which feminism would topple the master’s house?
There’s a game plan?? Well, I certainly missed that memo…
“…I resent the… fairly ignorant assertion that women cannot change the nature of institutions.”
Who said that?
“…then who pray tell would the radical feminist troops send in to solve this problem?”
What radical feminist troops? What are you talking about?
I’m picking up here that you’re pretty ok with patriarchal capitalist oppression, octogalore – it works for you, yes? Well that’s fine and I’m up for debate or discussion of our differing opinions, values and choices if you like but, blimey, let’s keep it sensible.
I realise that the concept of an egalitarian dominant ideology is as difficult for a lot of people to get their heads round as imagining a new colour would be. I also understand that, for those who are doing ok and feeling secure under the current regime, there is a reticence towards critical examination.
sarmorrow // April 1, 2007 at 11:28 pm |
Rad fem troops?
“Judoon”
*giggle* sorry.
sparklematrix // April 1, 2007 at 11:39 pm |
*cough* straw everywhere *splutter*
sarmorrow // April 1, 2007 at 11:48 pm |
ROFL, wasn’t it FAB! I think I like Martha….
Laurelin // April 2, 2007 at 12:13 am |
I’m very allergic to straw…
sarmorrow // April 2, 2007 at 12:29 am |
Categorised mysogynist.
Plea guilty.
Sentence Execution.
Nice ring to it……..
Sadly the Judoon have no jurisdiction, we’d have to ship the menz to the moon …….
Hmm, is this a problem?
sparklematrix // April 2, 2007 at 1:20 am |
If they are straw menz – then I say yay!
octogalore // April 2, 2007 at 2:11 am |
Witchy –some interesting points. A few quibbles though.
“O: What is the game plan by which feminism would topple the master’s house?
W: There’s a game plan?? Well, I certainly missed that memo…”
So there isn’t one? You had said: “Hence the fight to topple the master’s house. Hence feminism.” Which led me to believe there might be some strategy you had in mind by which feminism could help do this. If not, then why not try to effect change from within.
“O: I resent the… fairly ignorant assertion that women cannot change the nature of institutions.
W: Who said that?”
You. Women changing the nature of institutions IS effecting change from within, using the masters tools. So in saying the latter won’t work, you were making this assertion.
“O: then who pray tell would the radical feminist troops send in to solve this problem?”
W: What radical feminist troops? What are you talking about?”
I mean that the “topple patriarchy rather than try to achieve success within it” paradigm doesn’t suggest to me a solution to the problem I posed of taking care of family or friends’ poverty and medical issues. Laurelin, I am not saying that Witchy advocated not having a job. But she did suggest that the jobs that are most economically fruitful, typically stemming from the master’s tools, are not well advised for women to pursue. To make it more concrete: the person in my family who has profited the most from capitalism has been the one who has picked up the slack for family health needs. Why is it a problem for you for women, as well as men, to put themselves in a position to best protect their families? I must say I found it kinda ironic when one family member, who chose a radfem-acceptable “helping” profession (and let me be clear: I am not knocking it and admire her greatly, but would’ve appreciated a similar level of understanding) ultimately fell back on the corrupt capitalist when a time of need came.
“I’m picking up here that you’re pretty ok with patriarchal capitalist oppression, octogalore – it works for you, yes?”
Witchy – I don’t think I’ve said anywhere I’m OK with oppression. I think we have a fundamental disconnect here. I do not believe that women benefiting from capitalism oppresses anyone. You have not demonstrated a feasible method for ending capitalism. If women were to drop out of it, thereby temporarily reducing supply, guess what? The demand would remain the same and the women’s spots would be filled by … wait for it … men!
How would that be less oppressive than the current system? I’d argue it’d be more so. Wanna see how, compare a company with a preponderance of men, like GM, with a company that happens to have 50% women – there are a few. You’d see a difference. One of our clients is a woman-run law firm. Their commitment to pro bono is one of the only non-lip-service commitment to public interest work I’ve seen from a firm in the particular markets this firm is in.
“I realise that the concept of an egalitarian dominant ideology is as difficult for a lot of people to get their heads round as imagining a new colour would be.”
Doubtless. And the only way we’ll realistically get there is for women to gain power in our society’s major vehicles of power. There really isn’t any other way.
stormy // April 2, 2007 at 11:22 am |
Sarmarrow said a little ways back:
“And why diss your “allies”? I don’t get it.”
Actually, there are a few who are not genuine allies at all. Wolf-in-sheep’s-clothing may make the picture a little clearer.
As for the ‘radfem troops’, I’m hoping the dresscode involves big heavy (flat heeled) boots. And perhaps munitions to complete the ensemble? I’ll see what I’ve got in my wardrobe.
sarmorrow // April 2, 2007 at 1:56 pm |
Judoon had fab, big, sturdy boots …..
sarmorrow // April 2, 2007 at 2:26 pm |
OY! Stormy, you calling me a large green vegetable? It’s SarmOrrow, not SarmArrow.
Vera Venom // April 4, 2007 at 3:20 pm |
“It’s not about individual choice. It’s not about saying “Feminism is about women. I’m a woman. I’ve chosen this therefore my choice is a feminist choice.” It’s about recognising how the choices you make as a woman impact on the lives of women as a group. ”
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!
~~~~
“This strikes me as a very creative interpretation of Witchy’s text. Where did she say ‘don’t have a job’ or ‘don’t use healthcare’?”
I’ve come to realize lately that the actual goal here is to mischaracterize non-”sparkle”-feminists (jsut when you think a worse label for “fun feminists” couldn’t be found) as much as possible. From what I’ve read lately it’s okay to crap all over radfems, but they sure as fuck aren’t allowed to voice an opinion – even on their own blogs.
I’m reminded today why I wanted to ditch the blogosphere all together.