…has been predicted by Oliver Curry in terms of class, intelligence and male sexuality.
I have a somewhat different prediction.
I’ve just read this (**warning – may trigger**) post on Women’s Space/The Margins
Essentially, a gang of fourteen boys raped, assaulted and urinated on a seventeen year old, developmentally disabled girl and repeatedly set her hair on fire. They recorded the whole thing and sold DVD’s to their contemporaries as well as posting the video on YouTube where it was viewed 9,000 times. They thought it was funny.
What kind of culture breeds boys like this? A rape culture that has it’s roots in pornography, that’s what. There is nothing in what they did (apart from setting light to her hair, perhaps) that can’t easily be found by anyone with a click of a mouse or a flick through a magazine. It’s all labelled as ‘entertainment’ and that’s exactly how those boys viewed it and, I suspect, how those who bought the DVD and looked at the video on YouTube saw it too.
And the boys involved? What made them think they could credit the film of their escapade with their own names and make some money out of this? I believe pornography has desenitised them to the cruelty and human wrongness of their actions.
But the message is clear. If pornography is informing developing male sexuality to the point where boys believe that the sexual torture of women and girls is a funny and a saleable product, if boys believe that women and girls exist solely for their pornographically warped sexual gratification and that overides any humanity women and girls might have, if boys believe that the sexual humiliation and debasement of women and girls is a good opportunity to make a few bucks then no woman or girl is safe. What kind of men is this generation of boys going to become?
I predict that this kind of behaviour will become more and more widespread – this isn’t the first instance in recent months, by any means, after all. As a result, women and girls will become more and more fearful as they come to learn that man as ‘protector’ is a patriarchally constructed myth. Women and girls will join together to protect one another because all men will represent a threat.
Ultimately, men and boys will need to be caged – like animals – in order for the species to survive.
37 responses so far ↓
therealUK // October 29, 2006 at 11:33 am |
Boys have been brought up – trained – to despise and hate the female half of the human race for a long time now. Their passage to and through manhood is one where they get access to enough resources to start working out that hate.
Unfortunately in the current climate I don’t think that enough women will join together – girls are being brought up to believe the lie that pornstituition is normal(healthy) sexuality. Most women will defend anything but the most obviously violent and excessive behaviour.
And we also already have a huge backlash against any that do speak out: being called prudes, anti-sex, aligned with the religious right, and being told it’s women and feminists (particularly radfems) that have made men unhappy anyway. Then there’s religious and right-wing fundamentalism, which has a huge appeal for insecure women and men alike.
If anything is going to change for the better then it needs MEN to step up and engage the decent side of their humanity – if they’re capable, and if they haven’t killed us all and the planet in the meantime anyway.
stormcloud // October 29, 2006 at 4:09 pm |
I agree Witchy, porn is a training manual for violence, and sexual violence, against women. These incidences are happening with far more regularity – and the few cases that get to court, usually let off the perpetrator(s).
It just has stop.
Lya Kahlo // October 30, 2006 at 7:01 pm |
“And we also already have a huge backlash against any that do speak out: being called prudes, anti-sex, aligned with the religious right, and being told it’s women and feminists (particularly radfems) that have made men unhappy anyway. Then there’s religious and right-wing fundamentalism, which has a huge appeal for insecure women and men alike.”
Not that we need any more proof of this, but when I read this bit I thought of this:
http://renegadeevolution.blogspot.com/2006/10/pornography-misogyny.html
Luke // October 31, 2006 at 6:18 am |
this is the first time i’ve heard about this story. jesus.
sparklematrix // October 31, 2006 at 3:15 pm |
The girl’s father was told by a local TV station that the parents of two of the boys who made the DVD laughed this off as a bit of fun. A bit of fun, for fucks sake! What parents give the message to their children that sexual abuse and terrorising a human being is fun?
Lya Kahlo // October 31, 2006 at 6:59 pm |
“What parents give the message to their children that sexual abuse and terrorising a human being is fun? ”
Parents that should be in jail experiencing first hand how fun it is to be on the receiving end of
“just a bit of fun”
Erika // October 31, 2006 at 10:09 pm |
happy Samhain witchy!
Sarah (Ethically Speaking) // October 31, 2006 at 11:05 pm |
Samhain Blessings my friend. May the turning of the year bring new adventures and happy times.
sparklematrix // November 1, 2006 at 1:02 am |
Yes Samhain blessings my friend – Sun Lord is dead until the 21st of december…long live the crone, for the goddess never dies.
RenegadeEvolution // November 1, 2006 at 6:54 am |
Just to clarify, as Lya linked to my post…as I posted in the comment thread:
“I would never blame the current trends in porn on feminism, but I would say fear has something to do with it…men fearing what they see as a “code of behavior” being forced on them in daily life, because well, they have historically made all the rules, and fear often turns pretty easily to hate.”
Lya Kahlo // November 1, 2006 at 2:51 pm |
And who do they believe is “forcing” this code of behavior on them? Who is most of the anger directed at?
It doesn’t matter that you personally do not blame feminists – they do.
That was my actual point. Apologies for making it appear that I was saying you personally adhered to the blame the feminists fallacy. It was unintentional.
RenegadeEvolution // November 1, 2006 at 5:15 pm |
Lya:
I think a lot of them believe EVERYONE is forcing it on them, at least men with very extreme hatred issues. Men are told not only not to look at women with “the gaze” (which, well, most of the time the shouldn’t), but they are also told that they should not eat meat, drink beer, watch football…be at all manly…from a variety of places. I do think most men aim this anamocity towards women, especially outspoken women who disagree with them, but Robert Jensen is a man, and he is telling them that a great deal of what they do is wrong, as are other men. It does not excuse the behavior, but I am of the mind that it can be helpful to understand what may cause it.
Lya Kahlo // November 1, 2006 at 7:16 pm |
While I do agree with you and that is is very helpful to understand what causes all this – I can’t shake the feeling that these objections aren’t worthy of being the cause of such unfettered misogyny. I fail to see what eating meat, drinking beer or watching football has to do with being “manly” 9I do all these things) – or how being told not to do these things in any way explains the holocaust on women.
I must be missing something.
Lya Kahlo // November 1, 2006 at 7:18 pm |
P.s that isn’t meant to sound sarcastic. That is honest. The things that feminism supports – equality, autonomy, etc – are not bad things. They improve the lives of men as well.
I don’t understand the resistance. It lacks all logic.
RenegadeEvolution // November 1, 2006 at 10:30 pm |
Lya:
Well, humans of both genders are hardly legendary for their logic a whole lot of the time.
CoolAunt // November 2, 2006 at 2:13 am |
“The girl’s father was told by a local TV station that the parents of two of the boys who made the DVD laughed this off as a bit of fun. ”
I don’t doubt that this is true. But did the boys’ parents actually say that? Or is that some shit the reporter(s) made up to get the girl’s father to react emotionally on camera and further sensationalize the story? Is the source story on the ‘Net? I’d like to read it myself and see if the alarm on my bullshit detector goes off.
The lie that the boom of the porn industry is a direct result of feminism, that feminism supports and encourages porn, has served the patriarchy well. That lie drove me away from feminism for many, many years. It was only this year, when I discovered BB’s blog that I learned that not all feminists are pro-porn and that feminists are even divided over the porn issue. I can’t be the only woman who’s been resistant to joining the feminist cause due to that lie.
Lya Kahlo // November 2, 2006 at 2:21 pm |
RE: True, but that doesn’t address the issue. I’ve read your article several times now and I still see nothing that explains why any of the things men are supposedly being “forced” to do are in any way a valid excuse or justification for the continuing holocaust of women (and children). This is not to suggest that you were attempting the definitive work on the subject. However, yours is the first and only piece I’ve come across that attempt to address the issue – so you are the one to ask.
In other words, do you have any links or book suggestions – whatever – that further explore this idea? I am very interesting in understanding the root cause, however I’ve found that most feminist blogs simply say “it’s not our job to fix them”. Which is true, of course, but not exactly pro-active.
RenegadeEvolution // November 2, 2006 at 6:43 pm |
Lya:
It’s not a valid excuse in the least. And I am afraid it is not a topic that a lot of people delve into all that deeply…I’ve not seen much out there exploring the “whys” of why men feel this way, I only know what I know from asking them myself, because I find the “why” interesting. I watch porn, and I’ve asked myself why, thought about it, all that stuff…so I also ask other people who watch it, men and women alike, why THEY watch it, and I tend to dig past the “because it turns me on” answer. And I have found a lot of men who are into the more rough, degrading porn watch it because they feel snubbed by women or feel that they are being forced to comply with the new codes of a new world. Sure, it makes no sense, but ‘feelings’ often make no sense. Recently, there was a huge uproar over a Burger King commercial which depicted men rebelling against everything from mini-vans to vegan food, all to a bastardized version of the “I am woman” song (’I am man’ was the version in the advert), the gist of the add was ‘men like red meat’. People were up in arms over this add…where as a lot of men I knew were of the mind that it was true…they like burgers and sports cars but eat healthy and drive mini vans because they are told, especially by women, that is what is good for them and acceptable. Not porn, mind you, but one way men feel they are loosing control and loosing their “manliness”…which, if your gender has been on top for all of history, might be scary. I think a lot of the reasons men act out against women, in a variety of ways, is because they feel themselves, as a gender, loosing control and power in society…and they do not like it and it scares them.
Lya Kahlo // November 2, 2006 at 7:02 pm |
RE: I agree, very much. I’ll have to do some more research myself. These reasons sound downright ridiculous to me, however I am worried that saying so discounts the feelings of an other group in a way that I would not appreciate being done to my own group.
And while it isn’t women’s job to fix the problems men created -for themselves and for us – I do think understanding is a good thing.
And, I also think that for a majority of males, the truth of feminism, etc etc hasn’t been clearly defined/explained to them so they are left only with the opinions of the crazy MRA trolls.
This is what I’d like to change. So, if we can understand what the resistance is, perhaps we can change it.
Call me naieve and optomisitc.
RenegadeEvolution // November 2, 2006 at 7:16 pm |
Lya:
a gal needs to have goals…i may write more on the “Why?” at some point, we’ll see.
imnotherethisisnthappening // November 2, 2006 at 10:23 pm |
I think that if ‘men’ feel they are losing power, then what better way to get back on top again than to steal the power away from the other half of the population by abusing them terribly?
I know the abuse I have experienced has left me half of the person I would have been – at best. Abuse is probably the most effective way to control and have power.
It is a scary thought but perhaps things are going to get much worse (is it even possible??) before they get better and we have proper equality.
I just hope we can *reach* the state of equality.
It makes me sick to think of what lays ahead though. And how can equality ever happen if males just get more and more and more violent towards women and children??
Perhaps wiping out males is a good idea.
Damn.
My husband might even agree with that. I know he feels a hell of a lot of guilt for being male considering how many males abused me all my life, and also he feels guilt for screwing up when he approaches something with his position of entitlement and then I get really pissed off and let him hear all about it.
I guess it is tough for the ‘good guys’ too… they are shown how to ‘be’ from day one and then they get older and SOME men realise that it is not actually acceptable, yet they still have the same fucking tapes in their heads as every other man and it takes some time to break them down.
I think there might be something to be learned/gained from looking at feminism from a male perspective. I guess because the closest person to me in my life is male, and I see the struggles he goes through in order to be a better person and a respectful person etc… I mean, I have seen his transformation from someone completely ignorant of the damage of pornography to someone who was basically in denial about it to someone who fully accepts that no porn is ’safe’.
My husband only understands that about porn because I explained it to him. He thought ‘erotica’ was ’safe’ because it wasn’t overtly violent etc but I have explained to him that no matter how a woman might look on screen and no matter what she’s saying you simply cannot know how she truly feels about the situation and therefore it is not safe to look at any porn because you could very well be participating in the abuse of another human being.
My husband has changed because I have explained things to him and he does not want to hurt women in the first place. I cannot say if explaining things would help with men who do want to hurt women.
My feeling is that those men are best erased from the planet. You have to actually care about other human beings in order to be able to want to change. If other human beings are just meat to you – there for your own enjoyment – then there will never be any reason to change. Never any reason to have respect for another human being – nobody else is real except for them.
People who feel this way are called sociopaths or psychopaths. I knew at least one very well when I was growing up. There is no help for them. There will never be any change. Every day they live on this planet is another day they can abuse and torture.
Once somebody ‘is’ that way, there is no going back and the only safe option is to destroy them.
I worry that those boys in Australia have already reached the point of no return, yet I doubt they will be punished properly.
On the news I saw their grinning, leering, boasting faces on that footage and then local ‘upstanding citizens’ came on and said how the footage was ‘disgusting’.
Disgusting does not even begin to describe it. Disgusting is standing in dog shit, for goodness sake. What was on that video – the look in the eyes of those boys – was absolutely horrifying. I’ve seen that look before.
Take care,
Z
witchywoo // November 2, 2006 at 11:38 pm |
It’s so good to see you commenting again Z – I really value your contributions and there’s been an interesting dialogue going on here.
Part of me thinks it could be useful to hear the male rationale behind the increasingly public cruelty of their (generic) misogyny. Another part of me thinks that it’d then become ‘all about the men’ and women’s (generic) experience, once again, becomes subsumed by the male ego.
I also wonder why there are so few men who join in these debates – apart from the regulars with their throw-away “men are visual creatures” or “it’s only sexual expression” and “women like it too” and, of course, the trolls with their pathetic attempts to stop women speaking about this by swearing and threatening to rape us – there seems to be so few men who actually want to consider the wider implications of a pornographic culture on humanity as a whole.
I appreciate your attempts at explanation RE and I acknowledge that, as someone working at the coal face so to speak, you have your own insights into why men (generic) behave as they do. It would be interesting to have a mans view of your analysis though. It would also be helpful if more people were prepared to get past that “it turns me on” explanation – get over themselves, really – and think about the wider issues.
Z, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with “You have to actually care about other human beings in order to be able to want to change.” Seems to me that, in the great scheme of things, men don’t often recognise that women and children actually are human beings – and sometimes women are encouraged to forget that little detail about themselves…
Lya Kahlo // November 3, 2006 at 3:41 pm |
“I mean, I have seen his transformation from someone completely ignorant of the damage of pornography to someone who was basically in denial about it to someone who fully accepts that no porn is ’safe’.”
I have seen the same from my bf. We’re still in the denial phase, but I’m working on that. He is otherwise a non-violent, fair and kind person. And one who actively calls out his friends when they do and/or say something misogynistic. He recently ended a friendship with one sick pig who, at my birthday party, harrassed each of my female friends (and groped one – my brother’s gf) – all of whom he’d just met that night and all of whom had bf’s at the party. My bf called him a predator and physcially removed him from the house. Then, over e-mail told him exactly what he did, why it was disgusting wrong and not even remotely forvgivable even if he were drunk. This is the first man I’ve ever met (outside my family members) who stood up to his friends misogynistic behavior instead of giving it a free pass with “boys will be boys”. It made me very happy to see this.
re porn: I think boys get caught up in the “naughtiness” of it – since we will in an oddly prudish country that considers se to be so dirty, and evil (if you enjoy it, apparently). As RE points out in her piece – women (stereotypically) like “bad boys” and so too do men like “bad girls” – Bad girls being, of course, like those in porn. Then two things happen – either a) they get a gf and start trying to treat her like the women are treated in porn or b) they can’t get a gf and start using porn as a way to alieviate lonliness. I’ve heard boys say this. That they are willing to look passed the racism, the misogyny (and yes, the violence) because they are lonely, desperate for female contact and need a release. They view porn as the “next best thing”. Either way, it seems NO ONE points out to them the underlying issues. And when you do, it’s like a light bulb goes on. Like it’s something that’s never occurred to them before.
There are ways to portray sex and sexuality without making it degrading, humiliating or violent. Does this type of thing exist? It seems all I ever come in contact with (not by choice) is the vile kind.
stormcloud // November 3, 2006 at 3:44 pm |
CoolAunt said:
“But did the boys’ parents actually say that? Or is that some shit the reporter(s) made up..”
You can watch the reporter saying that on the first youtube clip on my post:
http://stormcloud.wordpress.com/2006/11/01/ctm-werribee/
The reporter actually said it was the comment from ONE of the parents.
Australian libel/slander laws are regularly enforced and upheld, so it is doubtful that the reporter ‘made it up’, as the parent could easily take him to court on it.
I worked in TV news for over five years (in Aust). I am aware of the spin and slant that reporters use (’sensationalism’). However, they don’t usually tell out-and-out porkies, as the programmes/stations get sued (and get mighty p’d off with the reporter). It is also likely that the reporter recorded the conversation with the parent as evidence in case he did need to defend it in court. When I say likely, I mean, a dead cert.
stormcloud // November 3, 2006 at 4:12 pm |
I’m quite late to the party on the RE/Lya/Z discussion, distracted with other things.
I’m still busy actually, and will try to get back to this thread a bit later.
renegadeevolution // November 3, 2006 at 8:59 pm |
WW:
Yes, it would be interesting to see what more men thought of my theories. A few men have commented on the original post, but not the “Why” issue…I may have to do a post about that all on its own and see if anyone says anything.
I am actually really impressed with the level of civility going on here, and want to thank you all for maintaining it (heh, you run a classy joint, WW!)
Hum, so much to think about…
witchywoo // November 3, 2006 at 10:23 pm |
Ah, well. I’m a classy witch
Lya – I had such mixed feeling when I read your last comment.
First of all it was ‘yay! good for you! And good for him, too. It’s not easy for men to challenge one another’s misogyny and those that do leave themselves open to insult and derision from the pack.
And then I remembered that thing we do. You know, when we feel grateful for being treated like a human being and thank men for doing that like they’ve done something special. They haven’t. All they’ve done is a bit of recognition but it happens so rarely we get gushy with gratitude.
When I was younger, I used to thank the men in my life when they did a bit of housework – like they did it for me, or something. How daft is that! I don’t any more but I have to bite my tongue not to. Although I’ve raised my game as far as acceptable male behavior is concerned I still feel thankful when I’m not regarded as ‘less than’. Old habits die hard, I guess.
renegadeevolution // November 4, 2006 at 4:04 am |
FYI, I did a new post about “the why”, you’re all welcome to add and share your thoughts on it if you wish.
imnotherethisisnthappening // November 4, 2006 at 4:57 am |
I understand the fear of discussions becoming all about men – which is one reason I think it would be really great for men who have ’seen the light’ and have changed or are in the process of changing into people who are fully respectful of women to get together and support each other. I think men who are respectful of women often get labelled as ‘pussy whipped’ (ugh) and there are the comments about ‘who really wears the pants’ blah blah blah… there is actual stigma associated with men who are respectful of women!
One thing I notice is that a lot of shame is involved. My husband is extremely ashamed of the fact he looked at porn. I have really tried not to ‘rub it in’ – NOT because I want to make it ‘easy’ on him – goodness knows things are not easy for the women in porn! – but I have tried to let him know whilst still being understanding, because I realise that making someone feel overly defensive due to guilt can actually drive them further into denial.
I am happy at the moment that my husband does not look at porn and simply *could not* look at porn again, because he ‘gets it’. And this is a man who hardly ever has sex because I have a fear of sex except for rare occassions when I want to have sex. So all the excuses that if you are not having sex regularly then you simply must look at porn or visit prostitutes is just bullshit. My husband can testify to that. He has a rather high sex drive too.
In the future it would be great if my husband could talk to other men about what he has learned etc. It wouldn’t work over the internet though – he writes an e-mail to his family overseas and you’re lucky if it’s more than 2 sentences long! I don’t know how men can get together and have group discussions or something… but I think it would be brilliant.
I do think that men who are allies can be helpful to women’s causes. There are also men out there who have helped their female partners immensely – which is not something to take lightly. I know it has taken a hell of a lot of patience and giving-a-damn on the part of my husband to stay with me and he has actually been my caregiver over the years when I have been very psychologically unwell.
I know it is dangerous territory getting into the ‘man saving the woman’ thing here, but the important thing is I feel *equal* to my husband despite the fact he has been my caregiver. My husband has protected me and helped me grow but we have a firmly equal standing in the relationship.
Anyway, I have spoken far too much about my husband! I also understand what you say WW, about gushing when men do ‘good’ things or the ‘right’ thing. It can be hard not to do – and a strange feeling encouraging the ‘correct’ behaviour – even though that is what should be happening in the first place. It’s just that most of the time, it is not happening. Sad state of affairs really…
It’s almost like how you encourage an unruly child to start behaving better… always praising the positive/good behaviour. Men are not children. A hell of a lot of men I have met seem to act just like unruly children though.
I laugh about the housework – when I was younger and I used to do all the dishes I would want my mother to say to me I did a good job on the dishes. Mainly because I despise doing them. My mother would get pissed off and say I was supposed to do the damn dishes anyway so she wasn’t going to tell me ‘good job’.
I would just end up feeling very disheartened and like my efforts went unnoticed. I always thanked my mother when she did the dishes! So now, I thank Fish when he does the dishes and he thanks me when I do the dishes and we all feel very good about ourselves for doing something we hate
heh heh Yeah… I think everyone in this household is pretty child-like, in ways 
Take good care!!
Z
p.s. I promise not to go on about my husband again next reply!! I really do get where you’re coming from re: the topic being changed around to men and everything from a male perspective. I think it can be helpful to talk about – in relatively small doses.
CoolAunt // November 4, 2006 at 6:00 am |
Witchywoo stated: And then I remembered that thing we do. You know, when we feel grateful for being treated like a human being and thank men for doing that like they’ve done something special. They haven’t. All they’ve done is a bit of recognition but it happens so rarely we get gushy with gratitude.
Z stated: It’s almost like how you encourage an unruly child to start behaving better… always praising the positive/good behaviour. Men are not children. A hell of a lot of men I have met seem to act just like unruly children though.
I laugh about the housework – when I was younger and I used to do all the dishes I would want my mother to say to me I did a good job on the dishes. Mainly because I despise doing them. My mother would get pissed off and say I was supposed to do the damn dishes anyway so she wasn’t going to tell me ‘good job’.
I would just end up feeling very disheartened and like my efforts went unnoticed. I always thanked my mother when she did the dishes! So now, I thank Fish when he does the dishes and he thanks me when I do the dishes and we all feel very good about ourselves for doing something we hate heh heh Yeah… I think everyone in this household is pretty child-like, in ways
I had been thinking today about responding to Witchywoo about not thanking men when they act properly and treat us with the respect and dignity with which all humans should be treated, something that’s repeated often at the radfem blogs/boards. I understand that women should expect to be treated as humans by men but the truth is that almost all of the time, we’re not. The reason, of course, is that there are many, many benefits to the entitlement that men currently are allowed in our patriarchial culture. What is the payoff for giving up that entitlement? The good feeling of doing what’s right? Hahahaha! Yeah…so far, that’s had men lined up, ready to turn in their entitlement cards. That’s enough sarcasm from me.
So, what is the payoff for a man who gives up the entitlement that’s been handed to him by our culture? Not much, not at first, anyway. In the long run, he finds that his relationships with women are better, that his sex life is better (porn destroys sexual satisfaction in males, but that’s another long-winded post), he learns that emotional intimacy isn’t so scary after all and is really a good thing, etc. But all of that comes along later in the process.
Immediately after giving up the entitlement that was so freely handed to him, there is no payoff. In fact, it can be costly to men as far his relationships with other men are concerned. Men who give up that entitlement catch a lot of shit from other men. They’re called names, accused of being emasculated, treated as outcasts… It can’t be easy for them.
No, don’t even start in on me about feeling sorry for the good ol’ boys or even for the newly reformed ex-good ol’ boys. I’m not talking about feeling sorry for anyone. What I am talking about is positive reinforcement. Just as Z had wished that her mother had thanked her for doing the dishes even though it was her job to do them. It would have been so easy for her mother to say a simple, “Thank you,” once in a while and it would have made Z feel so appreciated that doing the dishes would have been a job that she could have taken pride in.
The same can be said of saying a simple “thank you” to men who have turned in their entitlement cards and have been doing what’s right, treating women as humans. A little positive reinforcement goes a long way.
Hey, it’s been working for the patriarchy for a long time. That’s what women who “behave” according to the patriarchy get out of it: those pats on the back from those who they strive to seek approval from.
Yes, men should treat us as humans because we are humans. However, in this culture they don’t have to and their are many benefits to the entitlement that they’re afforded as men. So, why not a simple “thank you” to those men who give up their birthright – entitlement – to do what’s right? I don’t see how that can hurt any of us.
simplywondered // November 6, 2006 at 12:56 am |
cool aunt – (tho you are undoubtedly cool) i’m not sure you could say that those males who give up the supposed entitlement to treat women like shit get an improvement in their sex lives becuase they no longer use porn – odd as it might seem to some of the porn debaters, even very patriarchal men are not all whacking off to porn all day long. they are probably out there oppressing women in rather more direct ways or just earning a living (whether vast or average).
Not sure that most of the men who cross the floor and wear a badge saying ‘I’m going to treat my woman more equally’ get stick form their mates. Men do not sit around thinking of new and better ways to oppress women – the patriarchy is more subtle and evil than that.
This is not to say I disagree with your point – most of the stick aspiring fair men get seems to come from women who feel that having a go at men who are likely to listen is more fun than at men who clearly don’t. Often these are women who see themselves as radfems (whther they are or not I wouldn’t know) and run the risk of alienating the male support. On the other hand a lot of women have some pretty legit grievances and you can understand them giving a bit back and if these men can’t stick it, well they should do something less challenging than redressing the sexual imbalance in society – and why should men require a round of applause for not being utterly crap?
However, nobody could deny that men do a lot better with a little tickle to the tummy now and then – keep hitting a friendly dog and the poor simple creature will eventually get the message and bite you.
I guess there’s a disconnect between what’s fair and what is tactically sensible.
Lya Kahlo // November 6, 2006 at 2:42 pm |
“nd then I remembered that thing we do. You know, when we feel grateful for being treated like a human being and thank men for doing that like they’ve done something special. They haven’t. All they’ve done is a bit of recognition but it happens so rarely we get gushy with gratitude.”
I expressed my approval of his decision (he didn’t tell me until after the deed was done) – though I never said the words “thank you”. It’s obviously the right thing to have done. It’s clearly something I would have suggested had he not done it. It is true that it is distubring – to say the least – that we should feel greatful that things are handled correctly specifically because we so rarely see it.
He told the guy off and ended the friendship unaided, and unprompted. I didn’t have to point out to him that his ex-buddy was acting like a sexual predator, he identified it and did the right thing. That’s what makes me happy.
And, given the misogynistic society we live in I see little wrong with thanking and/or celebrating males which do the right thing. Call it patronising if you will, but people respond to positive reinforcement. I am happy he responded this way and I told him so. I don’t think it would have been very productive to tell him that I wouldn’t thank him because men don’t respond this way often enough.
~~~~
“Men are not children. A hell of a lot of men I have met seem to act just like unruly children though. ”
Last week, I caught a bit of my local afternoon news. They had on a man who was peddaling some relationship book. He went on about how women talk more than men and blah blah blah (ironic given how he did nothing but blabbering on and on about nothing.
) Then, he mentioned the title of one of his chapters. It was “Think of us [men] as four-year-olds who shave”.
I was appalled. Both the male and female hosts of the show giggled.
“I laugh about the housework – when I was younger and I used to do all the dishes I would want my mother to say to me I did a good job on the dishes. Mainly because I despise doing them. My mother would get pissed off and say I was supposed to do the damn dishes anyway so she wasn’t going to tell me ‘good job’. ”
This is exactly my relationship with my mother are well. Once I became a teenager, I stopped helping her around the house at all because all she ever did was yell, complain and threaten. And by then I no longer cared because it had been made abundantly clear that nothing was ever good enough for her and she was never happy with anything. This is what comes to mind when this discussion comes up. This is why I am willing to be thankful because I understand what it is like to do right and be crapped on for it.
~~~
I’m unsure that any of this makes any sense. This is pre-coffee, so forgive my rambling incoherency.
Ann Bartow // November 6, 2006 at 4:00 pm |
Men have raised the “fear of losing their manliness” as a way to object to equality for women for literally hundreds of years, and in hundreds if not thousands of contexts. They were “fearful” about losing political power when women got the right to vote. They were “fearful” of losing economic power when women got the right to own property. When women were finally allowed to attend top universities in the 1970s men were “fearful” that there would be fewer slots for them. In contexts in which women outperform men, they demand special consideration for their maleness. In contexts where men outperform women, we are supposed to shrug and accept that as the natural order of things.
They were and continue to be “fearful” about losing ground to smart, hardworking women who are making inroads in the legal and medical professions and many other spheres of public and private life. Always when women make progress, men want reassurance that they are still privileged and in control. There is nothing even remotely new about this. Go back and read the reactions to Mary Wollstonecraft’s “A Vindication of the Rights of Woman” in the 1790s and note how familar and modern some of the rhetoric sounds.
renegadeevolution // November 6, 2006 at 7:45 pm |
Ann:
I would not disagree with your above statement in the least. However, that does not mean we should not, if we are of the mind to, explore and discuss this “fear”.
Rootietoot // November 7, 2006 at 9:59 pm |
As the mother of 4 boys, 3 of them late teens, I know that it is entirely possible to raise young men who will (and do) treat women with respect, and as equals. The burden of the responsiblity belongs to the parents, who encourage libertine behavior, who choose “friendship” with their children over “parenthood”, and who shove the duties of parenting onto strangers who have no emotional investment in the children. That’s how concienceless children happen, and thats (probably) how these awful young men came to do the things they did.
Since most children are born of women and men, I don’t really see that blaming men alone is exactly productive.
cakeyj // November 13, 2006 at 12:25 am |
As a mother of 2 young boys I fear for them in this crazy messed up world we live in. I strive to bring them up to be respectful of men and women alike, but this path is not a straight one.
There is a lot of bad in this world, bad that I want to protect them from but also allow them be aware of, to enable them to acknowledge that there is wrong, be able to identify these wrongs, and make moral choices regarding them.
My boys need guidance and support and I suspect will do for their whole lives – I don’t think the ‘badness’ is going anywhere and I don’t think I’m being particularly pessimistic in worrying that the wrongs and divides of our society will worsen with time.
I refuse to teach my children that being men is wrong or something that they should be ashamed of. I want them to embrace their masculinity and strength and although acknowledge the powers they hold within our society as it is, I hope that they are people centred enough to not have to divide into the ‘us’ or ‘them’, ‘man’ or ‘woman’, ‘black’ or ‘white’ which dominates so many of the problems that occur within our society as it is. People should treat others as they would wish to be treated and as I strive to instill these morals into my children I am concerned for the growing anger surrounding the frequent incidences of abuse, which I agree are beyond words, flooding towards ‘males’ as a group, a group that my sons ultimatly will become part of. I wish my sons to admire and respect women as fellow human beings, not be fearful of them because of the indirect anger that is being generated by the sickening actions of this world. I do not want my sons to be persecuted by women, but I fear that this maybe something that I have to prepare them for. I will strive to fulfil my responsibilty as a parent and enrich my children to live wholesome lives where they take responsibilty for their actions and choices rather than blame society for what is pressured onto them. I believe that as individuals we should take responsibilities for our actions and behaviours and this should not reflect the views or opinons of the social groups to which we belong. I believe the ‘us and them’ will ultimatly cause as much distruction amongst people as the abuse and torture. This worries me.
Scott Lamont // December 18, 2006 at 8:22 am |
I’m going to deliberately avoid the larger and more complex issue in question in this thread, and instead propose an answer for the following question:
“I also wonder why there are so few men who join in these debates”
I think that you will find that answer in these quotes:
“Women and girls will join together to protect one another because all men will represent a threat.Ultimately, men and boys will need to be caged – like animals – in order for the species to survive.” – and you will get the sperm to propagate the species how? By testicular needle aspiration (it can be done to corpses, in case you are wondering)? If they are that dangerous, you wouldn’t let them out to have actual sex. And what do you do with male offspring? Abort them before they are born? Keep a few around as studs (in the breeding sense)?
“Seems to me that, in the great scheme of things, men don’t often recognise that women and children actually are human beings” – does this mean in the grand scheme of how daily society plays out, or that a majority of men feel, believe, and act this way?
“Boys have been brought up – trained – to despise and hate the female half of the human race for a long time now.” – is there no bright light here, hinting at the end of the tunnel? No improvement whatsoever? No basic inclination in boys that resists and refutes such training?
“Perhaps wiping out males is a good idea.” – ah, yes. The Final Solution.
“Once somebody ‘is’ that way, there is no going back and the only safe option is to destroy them.” – and how does one identify those who ‘are’ that way? Is it a clinical exam, or a trial? Assuming no appeal, how many innocents executed in proportion to sociopaths correctly identified is acceptable before the system becomes clearly, hopelessly immoral (witness the US system of execution for an idea of how this might happen)?
“I am actually really impressed with the level of civility going on here” – unless you are someone of the male gender who takes some of the above noted quotes personally, in which case you would find sexism rather than civility (my ego is not threatened by the line of discussion or the colourful rhetoric, but I suspect that many of those who the current posters would most like to hear from might feel a bruise to theirs and thus be unwilling to engage, except perhaps to lash out).
“One thing I notice is that a lot of shame is involved” – which is my point behind posting the above tidbits. If the hypothesis that many or all of the offending men are feeling threatened, potentially deprived or “unmanned” in some way, irrational and unreasonable as that may be, how does opening a conversation with heaps of generalized shame help? It closes almost all possibility of dialogue.
Any act of the kind reported is shocking and wholly unacceptable, and being angry that it happened, that people viewed the video like it was entertainment, that anyone could have been raised to believe that they could treat another human being that way, is completely reasonable. Venting that anger is reasonable. Classifying essentially half of the human race as an unthinking and unfeeling part of the problem is not reasonable, and will not lead to the frank, open discussion that desperately needs to happen.
Blessings.